Bullet failure 130 grain nosler partition with 6.5 creedmoor

[djm670]

Looks like impact vel would have been about 2200 fps at 4000' elev and a 2700 fps muzzle vel. 130g Sledge Hammer would arrive at 2350 fps with a starting vel of 2950 fps. A 117g Sledge Hammer would arrive at 2400 fps starting at 3075fps. Both of these bullets will retain close to 90%.

This is part of the reason that I push for higher muzzle vel.

Love the velocity squared function.... in the engergy equation!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Energy is pretty meaningless if the bullet disintegrates and doesn't penetrate or didn't deform at all and pencils or flattens out to such a large dia that it stops too rapidly and doesn't penetrate far enough to break through a bone. Impact velocity and proper bullet performance are much more important. Energy is only good for comparing one cartridge to another.

Larger caliber higher sectional density proper deforming bullets arriving with more vel do everything better.

 

[shaughn]

A bullet hitting bone...ultimate test of any bullet...range angle velocity rotation and construction of the bullet....are all factors...then lets put into the mix of this a surface of varying density and shapes (bone) and a hide that must be penetrated and flesh/muscle..the surface area's we are talking about is miniscule in relation to the whole animal...the bullet may not be striking a flat surface instead it's trying to bite on a curve..well the bullet like anything else is going to follow the path of least resistance.

Look at how much time is spent by various entities to understand exactly what a bullet will do in simulated testing media...we are talking million's of dollars and thousands of hours...but we still see and hear about bullets fail all the time..sometimes it's the bullet, placement, distance, animal in question and on occasion..Mr. Murphy... who knows where we all live...

Using a bullet caliber placement combo..that has multiple fail's... there is no need for that...you all know what the definition of Insane is....

The Op is a learning opportunity, the shooter in question..now knows that his selected placement point was a poor choice...learn from that experience...the father now knows that he will need to spend some time, indicating/instructing the son/daughter about the preferred aiming points and anatomy and that he might be extending the range of the caliber/bullet outside of it's optimum performance envelope..

All good in my opinion, we are constantly learning, adapting and getting better at what we do...nothing wrong there....

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Rotational vel is extremely under rated. Stability calculators are all about ballistic stability. Entirely different than terminal stability. Of you want a bullet to stay on track regardless of what it hits, a factor of 2.0 sg should be the goal. Min of 1.5. I don't think I will ever hunt again down at 1.5sg calculated at sea level. The added range from bc is not worth it. If I want to shoot father I will use a bigger gun our a faster twist to get the bigger bullet to a higher stability.

 

[ATH]

It's not the bullet or caliber.... it's the shot location.... lost an elk 3 days in a row..... 8 shots from a 6mm with 3100 fps light mag 95 gr SSTs and 100 gr partitions running 3000 all same area hit.... she went straight up a 60 degree incline. After 3 days 3 shots on her each day 8 of 9 hitting...... never did find her. Yet when I get proper shot placement I've dropped another animal ( again cow elk )at 427 yards from the same 95 gr sst hornady and punched straight through her vitals and she left 24 inch wide blood trail until she completely blead out about 400 yrs over the hill from initial 427 yard single shot in her..... ( only time I've ever gutted an animal and not even got bloody..... so its shot placement more than caliber..

Shouldn't that experience have taught you something about shooting an elk with a 6mm? The FACT is, if you didn't retrieve the animal, you do NOT know where you hit it.

I've lost count of the number of animals I have tracked for others, which where "lung shot" and turned out to be anything but.

 

[bigngreen]

A 243 was probably the most popular gun in this area for lower recoiling hunting rifles, I've seen a ton of elk taken very easily with them but this was before elk evolved armor plating and shoulder shooting. The biggest two bulls I've seen killed to date were with a 243, I've had kids shoot elk with a 223 on multiple occasions and not had one wounded nor had to shoot one a second time but it all comes down to putting the shooter in THEIR strongest position to make that shot, I've never seen a person who was flogged by to much rifle for them do well on elk!
By far and away more elk are wounded by guys with 300 magnumitis than guys shooting their deer gun, not even a contest!! It's so easy to see a wreck coming, first sign is the new 300 Weatherby, Leupold scope and a crisp box of ammo with Accubond, second sign is when they ask where to hold to hit a perfect shoulder shot, really have to break down an elk!
A larger cal and larger bullet is only and advantage if the shooter can handle it, I'd much rather have a well placed small bullet than a shoulder, *** or gutt shot elk with a magnum, if the shooter screws up I want them to be shooting something they can throw on three round burst and put multiple rounds on target than shooting once and getting hammered and can't connect again. Guys usually do very well on the second shot if they aren't getting beat by the rifle.
One of the absolute best things to do for guys on elk is to take a couple dry fires, makes people buckle down and get the jitters out of the way, huge for knowing if kids are ready, if you hear the firing pin drop and the barrel is dead then their about to put a whuppn on something!!

 

[clacka6mm]

I know e

Shouldn't that experience have taught you something about shooting an elk with a 6mm? The FACT is, if you didn't retrieve the animal, you do NOT know where you hit it.

I've lost count of the number of animals I have tracked for others, which where "lung shot" and turned out to be anything but.

I know exactly where we hit it.... we lost it because A end of season and B 60 degree up hill where she grouped with a herd and stopped externally bleeding. So couldn't keep her track. Again the gun was not the issue AT ALL... since that elk and learning where best to hold said cartridge in an elk for a drop down my last kill was 1 shot. 200 yds of 2 ft blood spray everywhere and dead animal. And not 1 drop of blood left in her..... same load as I've used for almost 20 years. Bullet and powder wise...

 

[clacka6mm]

As for 6mm out of 25 elk killed in my family since i began hhunting 14 of them were from 243 or 6mm...... 6 from a. 30-06 and 3 from a 7mm and 2 from a 300 h&h mag

 

[WildRose]

It's not the bullet or caliber.... it's the shot location.... lost an elk 3 days in a row..... 8 shots from a 6mm with 3100 fps light mag 95 gr SSTs and 100 gr partitions running 3000 all same area hit.... she went straight up a 60 degree incline. After 3 days 3 shots on her each day 8 of 9 hitting...... never did find her. Yet when I get proper shot placement I've dropped another animal ( again cow elk )at 427 yards from the same 95 gr sst hornady and punched straight through her vitals and she left 24 inch wide blood trail until she completely blead out about 400 yrs over the hill from initial 427 yard single shot in her..... ( only time I've ever gutted an animal and not even got bloody..... so its shot placement more than caliber..

Wrong bullet for the location. By design the SST is extremely frangible, it's not designed for deep penetration of any kind through any sort of heavy muscle or bone.

Match the game, the animal, the round, the bullet and the shot location at a given range and you will be successful if you hit your desired aimpoint.

Fail in any one of these areas and your odds of successfully bring an animal down with one clean shot go down quickly. Fail on more than one of them and it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[WildRose]

Are you saying that all 8 hits were bad?

I agree that skinning/quartering/de-boning an elk is a humbling experience, especially a large bull.
I will not say that a 6mm bullet can not kill an elk, your crazy to think that. I will say that only one of the elk I've seen shot (a mere fraction of BnG's experience) dropped. Most absorbed bullets like a sponge and either stood there or simply started to walk away, even with appropriate bullets from some largely chambered rifles. I have to drive a long ways, spend a bit of money, and hunt hard to get maybe one shot (or sighting). I would not take the chance with a small caliber rifle shooting small bullets. If I lived where I could hunt them more than a week or so every year or two, I may carry something like a 6.5 just to do it. But cannot bring myself to recommend it against such a large animal unless I knew I could take a really good behind the shoulder shot. I would rather have my .338 RUM loaded with the Hammers I'm running and not feel bad about taking a quartering too shot, or busting through a heavy leg or shoulder bone. Steve told me they would probably go end to end in an elk, and they did while destroying everything in their path. Hard to expect that from a tiny bullet.

Good mono's will out perform a similar cup/core bullet every time for penetration. That is what made me a convert.

The problem with some of them is that they don't expand enough to do a whole lot of damage on the way through so that always needs to be a consideration. When you are experimenting with new bullets doing your own penetration and expansion tests before trying them on game, particularly if it's a "hunt of a lifetime" or one that you're digging deep and working hard to pull off.

Yes they will be roughly 10% lighter than a similarly sized cup/core bullet and yes they will have lower BC's because of the difference in density but man will they penetrate.

 

[WildRose]

Assuming that the lungs stay intact. A proper lung shot will deflate the lungs almost immediately. An intact or partially fragmented high velocity bullet should cause the lung/s to initially expand [akin to shooting a capped metal can plumb full of water ] from hydrostatic pressure until they rupture and then they'd probably immediately collapse. After most of the good hits I've had you could put the lungs in something the size of a Cool Whip bowl.

At short range you'd be correct. Hydrostatic shock is limited by the energy impacted on the animal which is limited by bullet weight and impact velocity.

Even if you explode the lungs it still take time for the blood in the system to use up it's oxygen and for the BP to hit zero. If the animal is pumped up already with testosterone and adrenaline they aren't going down easily or quickly without interrupting the CNS and/or Breaking their running gear.

 

[WildRose]

In my case yes all 8 were into 1 front shoulder. Hit bone and deflected. Or just didnt penetrate where it needed to.. but I was also 19 at the time and shot the gun maybe 2 times a year.. now I shoot it probably 400 rounds a year much better hunter today than I was then why I can now today feel safe taking a 400+ yd shot with small caliber and feel very confident it's going to produce a quick kill

Often the lessons we learn best are painful. It's why we so rarely repeat those.

 

[WildRose]

If you did not change bullets I think your confidence is misguided. The smaller the caliber the more important bullet choice becomes.

He apparently learned to put it in the right place.

 

[WildRose]

Until the animal is down i always assume I might be shooting again and No I haven't seen a shoulder shot get stopped from a heavy 30cal bullet. Regardless, 8 shots with a 200+gr 30cal bullet in the shoulder will produce massively different results than a 6mm plugging away into the shoulder.
This wasn't meant to be argumentitive, but I encourage people to take a tool suited for the task at hand. Modern bullets have changed the capabilities of cartridges but limitations still exist

Had he known then what he knows now he'd have put it in the right place where it would have quickly brought the animal down.

I would never choose a .243 to hunt elk unless it was my only choice but if I did I wouldn't be trying to break the running gear I'd be doing what he learned and put it through the lungs.