Bullet Failure???

[bigngreen]

I shot an antelope with my 270 WSM and 165 Matrix first round forward in the shoulder and she took it like a rock star and turned so I hit her again in the same place obliterating her front end with bullets opening big and exiting. After a decent walk over there I could not find her, but following the carnage I found her and she jumped up on her hind legs and tried to take of and I had to shoot her again, you could see through the front of that antelope, no reason it was not dead on the first round, sometimes you can't explain it!! The same gun and round I've literally dumped bull elk on there nose at 900+ yards, this was about 100 yards and was just one of those WTH moments!

 

[Orange Dust]

Guns, even really big ones just don't kill like on TV. Some animals die easy. Some can take unbelievable damage and keep going. I've been amazed at this all my live.

 

[toddc]

I hit a 80 lb fawn at 150 yds with a 338 300 gr SMK going about 3200 out of a 338-408. It was facing me and I shot it in the brisket. The SMK blew up and blew everything out of the bottom of the deer.
Basically turned it into a deer rug. Heart, lungs and ALL of its guts were blown onto the ground under it.

Deer ran 80 yds and wasn't scared or anything when I shot.

I have blown out several deer with 338s and had them run. In fact they seem to run more.

If you've ever seen what a 338 300gr does you will know what I mean.

No vital organs in the animal and it runs almost a 100 yds.

Deer are tough.

 

[WildRose]

Ok Guys, time for some Monday morning quarterbacking. The rifle is a 300RUM loaded with 180gr Swift Sciroccos with a MAX load of Retumbo. It is a 1/2 minute gun. The deer is a doe @405yds. Wind is calm with 10mph gusts. Deer is facing into wind broadside. I set the drop, hold on the point of the shoulder instead of lungs. Thinking will give a little cushion if misjudge wind. Get solid and wait for wind. It lays and I touch it off. Big rifle bumps and bullet hits just as it comes down. Deer must have been wet from swimming bayou because it looked like her front shoulder was hit with a RPG. Deer went down and was laying at the edge of the field with its white belly showing. Watched it for a little bit, it didn't move, so I gathered my stuff up and went to get the 4-wheeler. Drive up to the deer and it rolls over and takes off scooting on its chest with both front legs broke. It makes the 50yds to the bayou through heavy buckbrush flooded 6" deep, and is lost in 10' water. Very seldom have I ever lost a deer, and I have NEVER lost one with both front legs broken. I know the hit was a little far in front, but I'm thinking the bullet didn't expand or at least had a very minimal would channel. What do you guys think? I know if I had made the same shot with my 7 mag and SST's I would have ruined both shoulders and got the deer with the same shot. I now have 0 confidence in this bullet.

My guess would be you somehow managed to have a bullet miss the spine and not take out the lungs. Did you see blood coming from the mouth and or nose? Was there a decent blood pool where the deer had been laying?

I've had more problems with the Sirocco over expanding than not expanding at all so I doubt that it penciled through. In fact I've never had one pencil through even when passing between the ribs on the entry.

I have had them flatten out completely and take off at absolutely crazy angles once they got into the chest cavity with at least two I can think of off hand that made 90deg turns after entering the chest cavity.

I shot a big buck two years ago hitting him square in the chest facing me. I was shooting 300wm with 180gr Sirocco and it was just over 300yds so the impact velocity was very close to yours.

I swear that when I hit the deer he just stood there bugeyed for probably a minute or two. I knew he was hit right because I could see the impact but he just stood there.

Finally he turned sideways giving me a perfect profile and I put a second round in dead centered for his heart.

When I opened him up I could see the first bullet had run all the way to his liver and stopped there but was no more than 1/2" tall and as big around as a quarter.

The 2nd made a perfect golf ball sized hole through the ribs on the offside and passed on through.

 

[WildRose]

I shot an antelope with my 270 WSM and 165 Matrix first round forward in the shoulder and she took it like a rock star and turned so I hit her again in the same place obliterating her front end with bullets opening big and exiting. After a decent walk over there I could not find her, but following the carnage I found her and she jumped up on her hind legs and tried to take of and I had to shoot her again, you could see through the front of that antelope, no reason it was not dead on the first round, sometimes you can't explain it!! The same gun and round I've literally dumped bull elk on there nose at 900+ yards, this was about 100 yards and was just one of those WTH moments!

Sometimes it just seems like refuse to die.

Shock and adrenaline can do crazy things.

 

[orangediablo]

300RUM on 100# deer? Sound like you need to a larger rifle.

 

[HARPERC]

...... After a decent walk over there I could not find her, but following the carnage I found her and she jumped up on her hind legs and tried to take of and I had to shoot her again, you could see through the front of that antelope, no reason it was not dead on the first round, sometimes you can't explain it!!..

Amazing little animals...a friends son was always lucky in the youth tag draws. A couple Moose, Bighorn etc. Everything he shot with his .338, and .225 Accubonds pointed 4 legs in the air, and quietly died.

His first antelope, he shoots, picks his brass and looked to see a little buck hauling it for the horizon. It did fall without further trauma. Pretty much a lung hanging out the offside.

It's not rational but it happens.

 

[toddc]

300RUM on 100# deer? Sound like you need to a larger rifle.

Since it wasn't recovered you are probably right. I shoot a 338 at everything. Prairie dogs and turtles don't stand a chance.

 

[elkaholic]

I did not read thru the entire thread but will say this. The Scirocco is one of the best performing bullets on the market IMO. They expand well at lower velocity and hold together at high velocity. It is difficult to say what happened but very unlikely to be the fault of the bullet........Rich

 

[Orange Dust]

Folks, We have an answer. Found the deer floating yesterday. It was hit within an inch of where I was holding. Evidently it was just shy of broadside, or had its left leg back. It was standing in knee high grass at the edge of the beanfield. . Bullet went in at the front point of the shoulder. Exited just forward of shoulder blade on other side. Golf ball exit. Didn't open it up, it was stinking pretty bad. Been 85 deg here. Had to have pieces of shoulder bone tear up the lungs. Frag bullet likely would have anchored it. I'll just have to be more careful the rest of the season. No more of these for me. Rather lose the meat. Reality is shot was a about 3-4" in front of optimal. Made a mistake giving myself a little cushion for wind, that wasn't needed. This is the first deer I have shot with this bullet. Same hit with an SST from my 7mm, or the RUM would have ruined both shoulders. While the Scirocco's may be great bullets, and meat savers, every shot isn't perfect. Everything would be fine if not for the water. Everything is flooded. Deer only went about 50yds. Some folks would say not to shoot so far under these conditions, and they may be right, but would seldom kill a deer on our place. This field is a little over 900yds, and it is not our biggest one. It also would have been nice if the deer had gone further out in the field, but it was getting dark, and there was no time. Hate it, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. We did kill another doe and an 8pt without incident, with frag bullets. the 8pt was hit in the liver at a little over 300 yds and died on the spot.

 

[toddc]

Folks, We have an answer. Found the deer floating yesterday. It was hit within an inch of where I was holding. Evidently it was just shy of broadside, or had its left leg back. It was standing in knee high grass at the edge of the beanfield. . Bullet went in at the front point of the shoulder. Exited just forward of shoulder blade on other side. Golf ball exit. Didn't open it up, it was stinking pretty bad. Been 85 deg here. Had to have pieces of shoulder bone tear up the lungs. Frag bullet likely would have anchored it. I'll just have to be more careful the rest of the season. No more of these for me. Rather lose the meat. Reality is shot was a about 3-4" in front of optimal. Made a mistake giving myself a little cushion for wind, that wasn't needed. This is the first deer I have shot with this bullet. Same hit with an SST from my 7mm, or the RUM would have ruined both shoulders. While the Scirocco's may be great bullets, and meat savers, every shot isn't perfect. Everything would be fine if not for the water. Everything is flooded. Deer only went about 50yds. Some folks would say not to shoot so far under these conditions, and they may be right, but would seldom kill a deer on our place. This field is a little over 900yds, and it is not our biggest one. It also would have been nice if the deer had gone further out in the field, but it was getting dark, and there was no time. Hate it, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. We did kill another doe and an 8pt without incident, with frag bullets. the 8pt was hit in the liver at a little over 300 yds and died on the spot.

I shoot a 338 300SMK at EVERYTHING. Until I get a 375 built anyway. People say its too much. Too much WHAT? IDK about bloodshot meat. If you don't recover it bloodshot meat doesn't matter anyway. I'm not a Sirocco fan, I have killed a bunch with them but they do some inconsistent things.
I have found that shooting a frangible, as long for caliber as possible, as fast as possible, answers all of these questions.
All of these SUPERBULLETS were conceived back in a day when you had to drive something FAST because rangefinders were not commonly available. Therefore 150gr 308 cal was commonplace and NEEDED additional help since a short bullet is really not suited for game.
We have now come full circle back to where Elmer Keith was. Shoot a long for caliber heavy slug and let SECTIONAL DENSITY do its job with the bullet shedding about half of its weight and the shank taking care of the rest.
Physics always trumps man made design elements.

 

[ATH]

Glad you found it and have an answer. I've lost count of the threads about bullet failure which were probably bad shot placement, but the bullet was blamed because the animal was not recovered.

In my mind, you can't blame the bullet if you can't do an autopsy. I've recovered a lot of deer for people that were "hit right" that were in no way hit the way the shooter thought they were.

You are in a tough situation. The only way to anchor a deer the way you need it is to definitively break both shoulders. And if the lungs aren't taken out I've seen deer with the front landing gear broken cover more than 50 yards. Would a more frangible bullet have reliably penetrated and broken both shoulders?

The range argument is actually reversed here. A deer shot at 400 yards is far less likely to be driven by adrenaline from the report and cover ground under duress. I've actually had much better luck with deer going down quickly at long range than at short range, where the blast kicks in the adrenaline. A few years back I shot a buck in the front at 10 FEET across a ditch with a muzzleloader driving a 325gr FTX at >1800 fps. I would later find the bullet in the back ham, great retention, after having destroyed the heart, both lungs, the liver…pretty much the most destroyed deer insides I've ever seen. It turned and covered about 180 yards before it piled up.

 

[elkaholic]

You are on the money with the adrenaline thing! I have shot a considerable amount of game, including elk, at distance and have yet to have one run. They may stand there after being hit, or even walk slowly, but never run.
I don't think that a golf ball sized hole is bad performance. I think he just had a somewhat normal experience. ...........Rich

 

[RT2506]

Sometimes you just can't explain it even when it is a perfect shot and a deer runs off a long ways. I have lots of experience shooting these smaller size southern whitetail deer in east NC. I helped do crop damage control for a lot of years and shot them with about everything from a stick to a 45-70. For some reason the worst caliber that I ever used for them running off with perfect heart lung shots and even some shoulder shots was the 7mm Rem mag and it seemed not to make a difference what bullet you used when they were under 200 yards. My hunting buddy kept telling me "too much gun" . I came to agree with him somewhat. Beyond 200 yards where the bullet had slowed down some it seemed to kill them quicker. From my experience there are a few calibers and specific bullets that are drop them in their tracks killers. The deadliest has been a 25-06 shooting either 100 gr Sierra, 115 Nolser ballistic tip or 117 Sierra. I like the 117 Sierra Pro Hunter because it shoots very accurate in most any rifle and just drops them in their tracks 99% of the time. With most any 30 cal. if you keep it under 3000 fps impact velocity the 125 gr Nosler ballistic tip is awesome about BANG FLOP. In the 6.5x55 and 260 rem. class the 120 Sierra Pro Hunter or Ballistic Tip are real killers. I have had wonderful results with the 130 Accubond out of my 264 Win mag from 25 to a touch over 500 yards. Never had one take over 3 jumps and that was like a kangaroo on it's back legs. I am starting it out at 3350 fps. I understand about if a deer does not drop in it's tracks you stand the chance of loosing it. I hunt in swamp country and very thick cut over jungle that you would have a hard time trailing a chalk line through. If they run out of the crop fields you can loose them. If you can put that perfect high shoulder shot it usually does not matter what caliber or bullet because it drops them dead but that is not always possible. With these small deer there is not that much real meat on the front shoulders once you get through that plastic like membrane so I use a quick expanding bullet and wipe out the front shoulders. It is better to have the hams and back strap than nothing. Good luck.