Hammer vs cutting edge monolithics

[yorke-1]

I've shot a fair number of Cutting Edge bullets in .375s and .338s as well as handful of 7mm and .30 cal.

The 375s were shot in my wildcat 375 BME (375 RUM improved) with a 10" twist Brux. My base line bullet/load was a 350 SMK at 3050fps from a 30" barrel and it shot .75 MOA out to 1720 yards averaged out over the 325 shots fired with that bullet at that range. The CE bullets I tried were the 330gr MTH (3120 fps) and the 352 MTAC (3020 fps). I worked up a load with both bullets that would hold .5 MOA at 300 yards then moved to 1020 yards, 1380 yards, 1618 yards and 1720 yards. I was never able to get the CE bullets to hold consistent groups beyond 1000 yards. I would get 2-3 good shots, then on that would seem to just drop out of the sky. On multiple occasions we could watch the bullet trace out to 8-900 yards and then it would just go off into no man's land. Based on what I was seeing I came to the conclusion that the CE bullets weren't adequately stabilized. My best guess is that they were "slipping" in the rifling and not being fully stabilized despite having an appropriate twist rate and Sg on paper. I believe that with the right balance of velocity, bullet weight, twist rate and bore dimensions they can shoot very well and I've seen some people have excellent luck with them.

However I've seen similarly poor results with 275 MTH and 277 MTAC bullets in a 9" twist 338 Edge and a 9.3" twist 338/408 Improved, 190gr MTH in a 9" twist 300 RUM and the 155gr MTH in an 8" twist 284 Win. It was not nearly as pronounced in the smaller diameter bores, but there were still enough unexplained flyers or missed shots that I gave up on CE bullets and now I just use the ones I've got left for fireforming brass.

I haven't seen any of the same issues when shooting the Hammer Hunters. If I'm getting good clean holes at 300 yards, I'm getting consistent groups out to 1700 yards and farther. Just pick the right bullet for your twist rate and you're good to go.

The the 304 gr Hammer Hunter is my go to bullet in the 338/408 pistol when I shoot it out past 1 mile. The 300gr Berger OTM shoots well and has a higher BC, but the 304gr Hammer just shoots better. I save the OTMs for when others are shooting the gun or when I'm just messing around.

 

[TG-5150]

I know nothing of what I am about to blurt out other than 3-4 hrs. reading what I could find on the subject(proven data). So here goes.

What if a "Gain Twist" were needed to stabilize a monolithic bullet ?

I was studying Bartlein's barrel site and they have a page on this, that led me into studying and such.
Is this a rabbit hole or am I sniffing up the right tree ?

 

[yorke-1]

I know nothing of what I am about to blurt out other than 3-4 hrs. reading what I could find on the subject(proven data). So here goes.

What if a "Gain Twist" were needed to stabilize a monolithic bullet ?

I was studying Bartlein's barrel site and they have a page on this, that led me into studying and such.
Is this a rabbit hole or am I sniffing up the right tree ?

That's the exact conclusion I came to with regards to the very heavy for caliber Cutting Edge bullets. I haven't seen the need with the Hammers yet.

 

[jlreff]

Heard good things about hammers my self too. But my Barnes shoot so well with great terminal preformence. I've found no need to switch yet. Just got another elk with them two weeks ago.

 

[TG-5150]

That's the exact conclusion I came to with regards to the very heavy for caliber Cutting Edge bullets. I haven't seen the need with the Hammers yet.

I am going to call Bartlein's tomorrow and ask what they think. This is very old technology, back to patch and ball. I p.m.'d Steve and he said they hadn't tried them yet, other than some Rock Creek barrels that have a slight gain at muzzle. If their barrels all come that way I wouldn't know.

 

[yorke-1]

I am going to call Bartlein's tomorrow and ask what they think. This is very old technology, back to patch and ball. I p.m.'d Steve and he said they hadn't tried them yet, other than some Rock Creek barrels that have a slight gain at muzzle. If their barrels all come that way I wouldn't know.

I believe all Rock Creek barrels have a slight gain of around .5" in the twist, at least the one's I've seen did.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

ITAR regulation here in the States stop us from exporting. It charges $2200 per export. At this early stage in our company we only selling from our website. Hoping in the next year or so we will begin moving into distribution. Or if Trump gets rid of ITAR we can ship single boxes.

If someone over seas has friends or relatives here in the States that can send them a "gift" that works.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think I got mixed up between threads and put that in the wrong one.

Right spot I'm good.

 

[Bravo 4]

I have a feeling that the gain twist might help, but also think the problem (if that's what you want to call it) is that some of the new lathe turned bullets are made from such a soft alloy. While it's great for terminal performance on game it may be a problem when driven hard velocity wise, maybe the bullets are having trouble getting "traction" in the rifling. How "soft" does a bullet have to be to be rated to expand down to 13/14/1500 fps? Plus a 415 grain bullet @ 2900 FPS will not penetrate a 3/8" ar500 plate at 100 yards, just splatters with a small divot where as a WAAYYY smaller Barnes bullet near that velocity will punch a hole right through.
The long soft alloy bullets may have a certain velocity threshold they can stand when ran through the tighter twists needed for stabilization...? Maybe not enough bearing surface for such, maybe more aggressive (deeper/taller/whatever you want to call it) rifling?
My .408 shot the Cutting Edge MTH well past 2,000 yards and was scary accurate, this was at 2900 fps mentioned above. I was one of those that had trouble with some of the .375 Hammers, awesome groups up close but something happened way out. The good news is that Steve is all over it!
Don't know how many I have left, but if anyone is interested in trying them in a lesser cartridge than my Snipetac you are welcome to them (if it's enough to even mess with).

Added: Steve I see you are posting, what did you come up with on this? Unless it's a "secret", then you can just text or call me. I have the clearance!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

We have a 414g that is good to go. Well be loading them on the site tonight. I need to look up everyone that had tried the previous that didn't hold up and send replacements. in fact I just finished cutting a bunch to send Roy for the use of his rifle.

 

[TG-5150]

We have a 414g that is good to go. Well be loading them on the site tonight. I need to look up everyone that had tried the previous that didn't hold up and send replacements. in fact I just finished cutting a bunch to send Roy for the use of his rifle.

How's that for customer service.
And it's the main reason I am attempting to build two rifles around his bullets. I have never used them but we are sure going to give them a good tryout.

 

[TG-5150]

Bravo 4-
The main concept in a gain twist when discovered back in the day was to give the softer lead alloy cast bullets traction. Whatever the alloy mix is is non of my business. I am just a Peckerwood with an IPad. When I stumbled across this subject as previously mentioned, I was amazed at what I learned.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

interesting thing is the 375 cheytac is theonly place we have seen this happen. It is just so much torque when you are cranking a 400g bullet over 3000 fps. Just lots of force to get that mass moving.

 

[TG-5150]

They weren't too soft Steve, an Eland didn't like a quarter inch's worth.