Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?

[Thescandinavian]

I hear that sentiment a lot and disagree with it. My most powerful cartridge is what I call my "Rhino Blaster" load - a .45-70, 460g hardcast at 1812fps. I shoot it pretty well but it is a) not a long range proposition with my setup, and b) a bruiser on both ends. I'm talking shoulder damaging, retina detaching recoil. My second most powerful load is probably my .45-70 again, this time with a 350g @ 2181fps. I shoot it well enough to get consistent knockovers on steel rams at 600 meters and took an elk at 213 lasered yards. Althoug the hit was perfectly placed and the bull never took a step, I've had faster kills with 7mm RM, .30-06, .300WM and .338WM.

Neither bigger nor smaller, nor more or less powerful is always better. I do agree that an adequate choice should be made out of respect for the game animal in question. For antelope I most often use my .257 Roberts with +P loads of 100g TTSX or 110g AB. For elk, the few times it has gone, that Roberts gets a 120g A-Frame. But mostly it is a 7mm RM, .30-06, .300 WM or .338 WM. All three have proven to be equally effective, with the 7mm RM taking more elk than all my other rifles combined, with no drama.

This year I will be taking two rifles elk hunting, as is my norm. They will be two of the following:
.280 Rem, 140g TTSX or AB
.300WM, 175g LRX
.338WM, 225g AB

Have yet to decide but all shoot very well for me (was consistently ringing the steel at 500 and 600 yards with all three yesterday.) Leaning toward the 140g TTSX if I take the .280 as I know it will penetrate to the vitals from any angle.

Looks like you agree without even knowing it.
A 243 with 100igrain vld is likely to be more powerfull than your hardcast 45 bullets out at 500yards.
I even struggle to find bullets for my own 45 caliber that will match 6.5x55 power. Note that I wrote powerfull and not large. And the animal don't care about your shoulder. It only notice what energy it is hit with where it's standing and how much of this energy is transferred to its body.

 

[Gcan]

I agree.
But I'll quantify my statement further.
Big magnums require an experienced shooter(not a big shooter) and experienced shooter. I've seen a lot of guys toting huge magnums with confidence that they just need to hit their game and it'll cut'em in half. My point is unless you're really gonna go big, it will never ever compensate with being able to shoot well. Of course bigger is better in the hands of a marksman, but unskilled shooters should be using pee shooters(6.5creed, 308, 243) with the attitude that they need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs to make their shot count

I think the question needs a repeat and amendment however. "If a hunter makes the exact same marginal shot on an animal with both a small caliber and a large caliber using the appropriate bullet types, both going 2700fps, on a Tuesday at dusk, at 303.36 yards, is the large caliber going to be more forgiving on the marginal (non gut, non leg hit, non...) shot? IMO- yes. Is a 45 long colt more forgiving at any distance than a 260 Rem because its bigger. No!

Could This go on forever. Yep! The simple fact is larger temporary and permanent wound canals have a better chance of breaking or cutting somthing vital than smaller ones. Larger, fast, correct bullets are more likely to transfer more energy into an animal. In a perfect shot scenario, a 1/2" hole in a heart is just as dead as a 1" hole in a heart. But this discussion was about the bullet that misses the heart and maybe hits one lung or enters a bit forward and hits the shoulder.

g

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

Looks like you agree without even knowing it.
A 243 with 100igrain vld is likely to be more powerfull than your hardcast 45 bullets out at 500yards.
I even struggle to find bullets for my own 45 caliber that will match 6.5x55 power. Note that I wrote powerfull and not large. And the animal don't care about your shoulder. It only notice what energy it is hit with where it's standing and how much of this energy is transferred to its body.

At 600 yards and at 7000 feet where I tend to hunt, a .243 105 Berger with 3000fps MV will have about 2231fps and 1160fpe at 600 yards. By contrast, my 2181fps MV 350g NF FP will retain about 1110fps and 969fpe while my 1812fps MV 460g load will retain about 996fps and 1012fpe at 600 yards.

In terms of momentum, the numbers look like this (using the Berger value as the basis):
1.0x = 105g Berger
1.7xx = 350g NF FP
2.2x = 460g WFNGC

Read up on the Sandy Hook trials where they shot .45-70 bullets over a mile. The bullets still plowed through a 1" oak board and buried themselves a foot in the sand. I don't think any .243 bullet would do that, certainly not Berger VLD. Some non-expanding mono, maybe. But the .45-70 is already "expanded" by comparison.

 

[robert l]

In my state (Oregon) it's legal to hunt bear and elk with any 6mm or larger diameter centerfire. Now about my .25 ACP....

(Don't do it, Willard! You'll just make 'im mad!)

You just hit on some thing.Would you shoot a big bear with a 6mm? i would not. I have been chased by a mad bear with new cubs. And all i had was a 22 magnum. Let me tell you that it was *** and elbows down the mountain and never looked back.

 

[Thescandinavian]

At 600 yards and at 7000 feet where I tend to hunt, a .243 105 Berger with 3000fps MV will have about 2231fps and 1160fpe at 600 yards. By contrast, my 2181fps MV 350g NF FP will retain about 1110fps and 969fpe while my 1812fps MV 460g load will retain about 996fps and 1012fpe at 600 yards.

In terms of momentum, the numbers look like this (using the Berger value as the basis):
1.0x = 105g Berger
1.7xx = 350g NF FP
2.2x = 460g WFNGC

Read up on the Sandy Hook trials where they shot .45-70 bullets over a mile. The bullets still plowed through a 1" oak board and buried themselves a foot in the sand. I don't think any .243 bullet would do that, certainly not Berger VLD. Some non-expanding mono, maybe. But the .45-70 is already "expanded" by comparison.

From a quick look in shooter a woodleight 405 witch I have used will have roughly 20% less energy at 100 yard than a 105grain 243(I have never used)
My 45 caliber is great out to 100yards, but past that I struggle to find bullets with ballistics coifients that will retain energy and have enough speed to initiate expansion witch is needed to transfer energy to the animal causing damage. 405 woodleights could with moderate loads just go trough at 60-80 yards without expanding.

 

[Gcan]

Well I have a 375 and 408 Cheytac. Have a mac 50. I can assure you they all have more killing power at 3000 yards than anyone's 6.5 Crede at 1000.

A 243 shooting 95 gr at 2900 has about 200 ftlbs at 1000 and 1800 at the muzzle. My 460 sw 200 gr at 2420 Fps has 125 ftlbs at 1000 but 2650 at the muzzle. Ok class, which one is more likely to stop a bear at 20 feet with a marginal shot?
Big and fast is just better. no one said it's better for all things. The question is- is bigger more forgiving? If you want to compare modern goochi calibers to 45/70-444-405, Id still take all of those to save my life. If you want to compare modern vs modern then big & fast wins every time over small and fast cause Despite what a wife tells a husband, size matters.


Having shot animals in anger, I can say there simply is no substitute for caliber and horsepower. Period.

 

[Marc Gauthier]

Well I have a 375 and 408 Cheytac. Have a mac 50. I can assure you they all have more killing power at 3000 yards than anyone's 6.5 Crede at 1000.

A 243 shooting 95 gr at 2900 has about 200 ftlbs at 1000 and 1800 at the muzzle. My 460 sw 200 gr at 2420 Fps has 125 ftlbs at 1000 but 2650 at the muzzle. Ok class, which one is more likely to stop a bear at 20 feet with a marginal shot?
Big and fast is just better. no one said it's better for all things. The question is- is bigger more forgiving? If you want to compare modern goochi calibers to 45/70-444-405, Id still take all of those to save my life. If you want to compare modern vs modern then big & fast wins every time over small and fast cause Despite what a wife tells a husband, size matters.


Having shot animals in anger, I can say there simply is no substitute for caliber and horsepower. Period.

First of all, precision counts. And then the power and the caliber. For a calm game. But for an animal that charges you accuracy is difficult, a powerful and very fast blow are better. I think we all say the same thing but for different cases.

 

[Gcan]

First of all, precision counts. And then the power and the caliber. For a calm game. But for an animal that charges you accuracy is difficult, a powerful and very fast blow are better. I think we all say the same thing but for different cases.

Yes. Precision counts but this is a discussion about what happens when the precision isn't so precise. Id love to say Id never made a bad shot. I have. A heart shot is a heart shot with pretty much anything. But not all shoulder shots are the same.
30 years ago my friend Larry and I were hunting Newfoundland way out in the bush. Larry shot a bull moose in the shoulder with his 270 at about 120 yards and near dark. Loud "WACK". The moose flinched but stood there. Larry shot the moose one more time in the sweet spot within a few inches of the first shot. The moose was hurt but showed no signs of a mortal hit and started walking away to the left. Larry does the Einstein "stupid" thing and repeats the experiment. He shoots him again in the same spot, while the guide is telling him to chest shoot the moose. I shot the moose with a 180 gr partition out of my 300WM and broke both shoulders. Nose dive in the bog! When we cleaned the moose none of the 270s were fatal, even though they looked like perfect shots. Only one 270 had made it thru the shoulder into the front of a lung. My shot was in the same spot. I wasn't shooting at anything immediately fatal, but I knew I could break both shoulders with my 300. Bigger is better on a marginal shot. Sometimes its better on a good shot too. I have always liked BIG guns. Have plenty of small guns I enjoy shooting. I use them on hogs or coyotes, but I simply want to hunt game animals with more than what some people would think necessary.
After all, a rem 700 in 338 win, 300UM, 300WSM or 338UM really doesn't weigh appreciably more than a 270 or 06 or a 6.5 anything. (Oops. Another subject)

 

[dfanonymous]

Shot placement is key in anything from combat or defensive shooting to hunting, if one is seeking taking a life effectively.

It's my opinion and experience that people with poor technique (I know, there's so thing as someone with poor technique on the Internet) shooting magnums tend to intensify the those inadequacies do to recoil and poor recoil management and or poor technique overall.

Long story short, if you shoot well and you are using a magnum then you only gain the benefit of extended range, energy and penetration.

As far as splitting hairs I suppose with a larger diameter projectile goes if your shoot is off by mm then you would have that benefit as well however at range I don't see that being quantifiable in real life and probably not worth the discussion.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Yes. Precision counts but this is a discussion about what happens when the precision isn't so precise. Id love to say Id never made a bad shot. I have. A heart shot is a heart shot with pretty much anything. But not all shoulder shots are the same.
30 years ago my friend Larry and I were hunting Newfoundland way out in the bush. Larry shot a bull moose in the shoulder with his 270 at about 120 yards and near dark. Loud "WACK". The moose flinched but stood there. Larry shot the moose one more time in the sweet spot within a few inches of the first shot. The moose was hurt but showed no signs of a mortal hit and started walking away to the left. Larry does the Einstein "stupid" thing and repeats the experiment. He shoots him again in the same spot, while the guide is telling him to chest shoot the moose. I shot the moose with a 180 gr partition out of my 300WM and broke both shoulders. Nose dive in the bog! When we cleaned the moose none of the 270s were fatal, even though they looked like perfect shots. Only one 270 had made it thru the shoulder into the front of a lung. My shot was in the same spot. I wasn't shooting at anything immediately fatal, but I knew I could break both shoulders with my 300. Bigger is better on a marginal shot. Sometimes its better on a good shot too. I have always liked BIG guns. Have plenty of small guns I enjoy shooting. I use them on hogs or coyotes, but I simply want to hunt game animals with more than what some people would think necessary.
After all, a rem 700 in 338 win, 300UM, 300WSM or 338UM really doesn't weigh appreciably more than a 270 or 06 or a 6.5 anything. (Oops. Another subject)

i think bullet construction and sectional density come into play when we are talking about penetration. Hard for me to believe a 270 didn't penetrate to the vitals at 120 yards.

 

[Orange Dust]

i think bullet construction and sectional density come into play when we are talking about penetration. Hard for me to believe a 270 didn't penetrate to the vitals at 120 yards.

No its not. I've seen a hogs gristle plate stop a 130gr power point, and it wasn't a big hog. Depends on the bullet he used. A heavy partition most likely would have gotten through. This is a classic case of small for animal caliber. Similar to a .223 on a deer, or a 257 on elk. Will work fine if everything goes right. This is exactly what the discussion is about. I shot a buck at about 500 one afternoon with a 257 wby. Only got one lung. Caught up with him a couple days later and shot him in the neck with a 300. When we cleaned him everyone agreed he would have lived. Center punched one lung and caught the back of the other. Bullet lodged in the seam where the ribs meet the diaphram. Would have died quickly if shot with the 300. Bullet was an old nosler 120 gr solid base. Great rifle for deer to about 400 or so, not enough gun further. On the opposite end one tome i shor a big 10pt thought to be wounded. We were looking for him and he busted out and was running across a beanfield. Range was 600 give or take. I lead him and shot at him. Gun was a 8mm wildcat shooting a 210gr j26 at 3200. I didn't lead him enough. Shot through both hams. Did not hit the artery or bone. He went down and couldnt get up. Had to shoot him again, but he didnt go anywhere. 4" hole through both hams and massive trauma. Good examples of difference between big for animal guns and just enough. This is how it is. Anyone who thinks big fast guns dont kill better than little fast guns hasnt shot much game. Shooting deer with a rum, 30-378 or Warbird is just like coyote hunting with a 25-06. Kill the same and will tear him up the same with a less than perfect hit. I shot 190 ablr's in my rum last year. First deer i shot was quartering a little toward me. Hit the scapula and almost blew him in two. Exit was the size of a large pizza. Was much more careful with the other 3. Baseball exit. Instant death on all 4.

 

[Gcan]

Shot placement is key in anything from combat or defensive shooting to hunting, if one is seeking taking a life effectively.

It's my opinion and experience that people with poor technique (I know, there's so thing as someone with poor technique on the Internet) shooting magnums tend to intensify the those inadequacies do to recoil and poor recoil management and or poor technique overall.

Long story short, if you shoot well and you are using a magnum then you only gain the benefit of extended range, energy and penetration.

As far as splitting hairs I suppose with a larger diameter projectile goes if your shoot is off by mm then you would have that benefit as well however at range I don't see that being quantifiable in real life and probably not worth the discussion.

Perhaps you missed a post. I agree, there is little practical difference between .264" to .308" and .338" in their undisturbed state. The reason big Is better is because bullets expand. A 338 @ 100% expansion becomes 1.4 square inches in frontal area. The 6.5 becomes .9 sq inches. Doesn't sound like much. (it is - grab a compass and a draw 1.4" circle and one .9"inside it) Assuming both were making 2000 ftlbs at same speed the larger bullet will transfer more energy into an animal and disrupt more tissue than the smaller. The reason 338lm, 375C and 50s often literally cut a human in half shooting only FMJ is the size of the temporary wound cavity/canal. From a 50, the cavity in tissue is larger around than a human is wide. Animals are liquid. Rule #1. Liquids can not be compressed. The more energy imparted into liquid the more it must move in response. I'm not arguing shooting skills, recoil sensitivity or bullet construction. In a marginal shot the larger expanded bullet is going to affect more tissue with a greater opportunity to hit/break/cut something vital.

And yes, I was surprised the 270 failed to penetrate as well. In that case, it was more about bullet construction. However, there are numerous accounts of bullets hitting large animals and failing to penetrate. particularly on wet animals.

Below are some recovered bullets from real world use. 270 grain 375H&H, 440 grain hard cast lead 500 SW and two 180 grain 30-06.
The 375s speak for themselves.

The near Pristine 500 bullet hit a gemsbok in the sternum, passed thru the length of the body (lungs, stomach, intestines) broke the rear left leg and came to rest in the hide. There are lots of smaller rounds going faster with more energy than a 500 SW that wouldn't have done that even shooting a solid.

The 500 thats all chewed up shattered the spine and then destroyed the right shoulder on a 2000lb eland.

Perhaps the best examples are visual ones. The expanded 375s beside 30 cal bullets. All three did their jobs. They all expanded to the max. The difference between .308" and .375" in diameter seems insignificant. Not so insignificant in practice is it?

So, this being my last post on this subject I will simply state that I'll bet my 10 year old granddaughter could tell me which one of those is the better killer.

i think bullet construction and sectional density come into play when we are talking about penetration. Hard for me to believe a 270 didn't penetrate to the vitals at 120 yards.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

No its not. I've seen a hogs gristle plate stop a 130gr power point, and it wasn't a big hog. Depends on the bullet he used. A heavy partition most likely would have gotten through. This is a classic case of small for animal caliber. Similar to a .223 on a deer, or a 257 on elk. Will work fine if everything goes right. This is exactly what the discussion is about. I shot a buck at about 500 one afternoon with a 257 wby. Only got one lung. Caught up with him a couple days later and shot him in the neck with a 300. When we cleaned him everyone agreed he would have lived. Center punched one lung and caught the back of the other. Bullet lodged in the seam where the ribs meet the diaphram. Would have died quickly if shot with the 300. Bullet was an old nosler 120 gr solid base. Great rifle for deer to about 400 or so, not enough gun further. On the opposite end one tome i shor a big 10pt thought to be wounded. We were looking for him and he busted out and was running across a beanfield. Range was 600 give or take. I lead him and shot at him. Gun was a 8mm wildcat shooting a 210gr j26 at 3200. I didn't lead him enough. Shot through both hams. Did not hit the artery or bone. He went down and couldnt get up. Had to shoot him again, but he didnt go anywhere. 4" hole through both hams and massive trauma. Good examples of difference between big for animal guns and just enough. This is how it is. Anyone who thinks big fast guns dont kill better than little fast guns hasnt shot much game. Shooting deer with a rum, 30-378 or Warbird is just like coyote hunting with a 25-06. Kill the same and will tear him up the same with a less than perfect hit. I shot 190 ablr's in my rum last year. First deer i shot was quartering a little toward me. Hit the scapula and almost blew him in two. Exit was the size of a large pizza. Was much more careful with the other 3. Baseball exit. Instant death on all 4.

As soon as you started talking about shooting a deer on the run at 600 yards you lost me brother...

 

[Orange Dust]

As soon as you started talking about shooting a deer on the run at 600 yards you lost me brother...

I was helping a friend look for him. He shot at him and thought he had a good hit. He was wrong. We were on the edge of a beanfield on a levee where he shot him. The deer busted out a couple hundred yards down the field. He said that's him, the gun was slung on my shoulder. By the time I got it off and laid down to shoot prone, he was about that far, it is a guess. It was before LRF, but he was well over half way across the field and it was 1/2 mile across. He was shooting a .243 and we were assuming a bad hit that didn't go through. It was really a hail Mary trying to stop a wounded animal. He was running flat, like a wounded deer, not bounding. I'm a pretty good shot, but there was luck involved for sure. Hit him on the first shot. Wouldn't think of doing that to an unwounded animal, which he was, but I didn't know that at the time. I gave him his deer and let him tag it. Destroyed both hams. Seemed like the thing to do at the time. I hate chasing them. I feel like I must also add that we chased down several deer he shot with that little rifle. Always with either pitiful or non existent blood trails. Again, light for animal caliber. He bought a 7MM Weatherby a few years later and the problem went away.