Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?

[DJ Fergus]

Selection of velocity & Caliber size along with bullet construction can either make a center mass shoulder shot result in the perfect instantaneous kill or a slow death for the animal. Im not speaking of a high shoulder shot. If a fellow can make high shoulder shots in every situation imaginable, then his biggest limitations is just being able to make that shot and less limitations on caliber/ cartridge selection.

 

[DJ Fergus]

Hunting TV shows, especially long range hunting shows always show the high shoulder shot. It is awesome to see and makes for a great show. It's a great place to shoot for, if you can do it every time. Can't it be done every time, in howling wind at great distances? I don't try it. That's my personal limits, I won't specify some one else's limits.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

"Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?"

Only if the caliber is large enough. A 105mm or 155mm has a pretty good kill radius.

[Edit too add]
Since I started elk hunting in 1982, I've seen more elk wounded and lost by people using a .243 Win that probably all other cartridges combines. Whether that is due to shot placement or bullet selection or both is unknown in most cases.

In one case a kid shot a cow in a herd at 100-120 yards. I saw the dust fly at the hit and placement was excellent (ignoring the fact that there was another cow right behind it it and a pass thru would have killed or wounded at least two). The cow ran off and disappeared with the herd on unhuntable land.

Another case we ran into a couple guys asking if we'd seen a wounded cow. We hadn't at the time but later saw it was shoulder shot. Saw it and its bloody beds several times. The shooter used a .243.

Yet another case a kid was tail chasing a huge bull he had shot in the hind quarter. Talked to his dad as we watched from afar. Once again, a .243 had been used. THe bull was never recovered.

This is not to say a .243 Win can't take elk - many have done so. But it is not a cartridge I recommend for inexperienced shooters and mine will never go elk hunting, even though in the past I have taken a .257 Roberts +P loaded to 2947fps with a 120g A-Frame. Just cased three rifles from the safe for probably the last range trip before this year's elk hunt. .280 Rem (140g AB), .300WM (175g LRX) and .338WM (225g AB). As I will likely be shooting last/cleanup again this year, the .300WM and .338WM will likely be the two to go.
[end edit]

 

[Tony Formicola]

I agree you, especially on the quartering shots. I'm not going to specify caliber & velocity limits for anyone else but I have my own personal limits. I've had worst case shots on the largest mass of shoulder bone to go wrong with too small of caliber, when velocity was ideal. I remedied that with a solid copper Barnes in that particular rifle, but it was a trade off and we just don't use that rifle much anymore. Cross wind at long distances is a definite factor that will eventually have to be dealt with. I have my personal limits on caliber & bullet selection set so that I can punch through on the worst case shoulder shot when the wind is hard to judge.

yes, I am fond of Barnes as well.

 

[Tony Formicola]

I will make the argument that a Bigger caliber will make up for a bad shot in SOME instances. in a gun shot instance... probably not! However as an elk Hunter I assure you that when crap is getting real and you need to get an elk on the ground before it leaves the country because of a bad hit, I am more than positive that a bigger gun will get it done better. Here is an example. I took a buddy elk hunting for the first time. I guess nerves got to him and he made a bad shot with his 25-06 hit her high in the leg but nothing in the chest cavity. It was an easy 250 yard shot but he just screwed up plain and simple. I wasnt even on my rifle because I assumed she would be one and done. well off the elk go with her in the middle of the herd, down the canyon and around the corner. I told him to stay on her blood trail not knowing how hard she was hit and I cut across to try and intercept them. I got over there and they were just topping up out of the canyon and and over to the next which was a couple miles away. I could not pic her out and they were only getting further away, then I noticed an elk standing in the trees looking at my about 450 yards away so So I get down where I can steady my Binos and Finally She takes a step and I can tell its her. She starts to trot after the rest So I range where I think she may stop before she disappears out of sight. It was around 500 yards.. 502 I believe it was.. Anyway I dial the NF on my 375 RUM for 500 and settle in She hits the edge and never slows down and never turns So I sent a 270 gr TSX up her left butt cheek and through her hip which anchored her instantly. I wait for my buddy to catch up and we hike across to where she was and the bullet traveled the entire length of her body and was under the skin on her chest.... I dont believe the 25-06 would have anchored her at that range and angle. so thats my argument FOR it.

I made the same shot with the same results on a follow up shot on a big bull in NM. At 377 yards the Barnes..277 MRX in 150 grain penetrated the same way. It was started off at 3250fps from 270 Wby.

 

[Gater]

Bo

my argument is that a large caliber does not make up for poor placement BUT a large caliber will do more damage than a smaller one on a poorly placed shot.

In a perfect world non of us miss but I would rather track an elk hit in the guts with a 375 than one shot with a 243.

bott

 

[Gater]

Bottom line is know your and your firearms abilities if your in doubt about being able to make a kill shot then don't or if you don't think your firearm is going to make a clean kill at the range or angle then don't try

 

[Ingwe]

Hunting TV shows, especially long range hunting shows always show the high shoulder shot. It is awesome to see and makes for a great show. It's a great place to shoot for, if you can do it every time. Can't it be done every time, in howling wind at great distances? I don't try it. That's my personal limits, I won't specify some one else's limits.

like everything else on TV, I wonder how much they edit the show?

I bet that their misses and wounded animals are edited out

 

[Gcan]

Some say a hit anywhere on the body by a 50 BMG anywhere will kill. Interestingly, I know three people who where shot by one and survived.

The hits where, of course, on the legs and two of them required extensive hospitalization. The third was back on duty within about a month or six weeks.

Shot placement is more important than size of the bullet with hunting rifles. The larger calibers make getting precise and accurate hits more challenging. So, the answer to the title is NO.

I'm a bigger is better proponent. As far as the 50bmg goes, a hit on a limb with anything is unlikely to be instantly fatal, but you may bleed out or lose the limb. However, any solid torso hit with a 50bmg is going to be instantly fatal 999/1000, period. Notwithstanding a grazing shot, just about any thru and thru i.e., a gut or hip, shoulder hit is death. A center mass shot inside 2000 yards will cut a human in half with a non-expanding FMJ bullet. But that is not the real question here. People today Are conflating BC and distance with killing. So the 6.5s have become the new darlings of hunting rounds. Yes a 6.5/284-PRC or GAP is a killer but physics is physics and fortunately not subject to opinion. A temporary wound cavity from a big supersonic round is JUST BIGGER than one from a small dia bullet. A 140 grain .650 bc bullet going 1600fps at 1000 makes 840ftlbs. The same bullet @ 500 makes 1500 ftlbs.
A 338 lapua at same muzzle fps makes 3900 and 2500 ft lbs at the same distances. What part of that is unclear?

People are confusing a 6.5/6mm/7mm's ability to kill with killing like a heavyweight. There simply is no comparison. It's a Disney discussion.

 

[Canhunter35]

Oh yah, 20-30mm shell
9lb cannon ball.
Gut shoot away.

take a caliber and measure the difference between a .308 and .243 bullet. .065" difference. that slender difference will never make up the difference on shot placement

 

[35 Whelen]

Oh yah, 20-30mm shell
9lb cannon ball.
Gut shoot away.

take a caliber and measure the difference between a .308 and .243 bullet. .065" difference. that slender difference will never make up the difference on shot placement

A bad shot is a bad shot no question. But going up in caliber you go up in bullet weight, that can make a big difference on a marginal shot. Of course shot placement and bullet chose is the most important things.

 

[Ingwe]

I'm a bigger is better proponent. As far as the 50bmg goes, a hit on a limb with anything is unlikely to be instantly fatal, but you may bleed out or lose the limb. However, any solid torso hit with a 50bmg is going to be instantly fatal 999/1000, period. Notwithstanding a grazing shot, just about any thru and thru i.e., a gut or hip, shoulder hit is death. A center mass shot inside 2000 yards will cut a human in half with a non-expanding FMJ bullet. But that is not the real question here. People today Are conflating BC and distance with killing. So the 6.5s have become the new darlings of hunting rounds. Yes a 6.5/284-PRC or GAP is a killer but physics is physics and fortunately not subject to opinion. A temporary wound cavity from a big supersonic round is JUST BIGGER than one from a small dia bullet. A 140 grain .650 bc bullet going 1600fps at 1000 makes 840ftlbs. The same bullet @ 500 makes 1500 ftlbs.
A 338 lapua at same muzzle fps makes 3900 and 2500 ft lbs at the same distances. What part of that is unclear?

People are confusing a 6.5/6mm/7mm's ability to kill with killing like a heavyweight. There simply is no comparison. It's a Disney discussion.

I totally agree with you that bigger is better but I was add that I use a 7mmRemMag for everything I've killed so far. My biggest animal to date was a 2,000lb Eland that I shot throgh the lungs at 50 yards. When it didn't drop , I fired a second which hit him above the hip and broke its spine dropping him. The lungs were shredded and that 160gr Barnes X bullet looked tiny compared to the animal it killed.

The 7mm did it's job BUT if I had gut shot him, I would have rather have gut shot him using a 375 or 416 instead.of a 7mm

 

[Gcan]

Oh yah, 20-30mm shell
9lb cannon ball.
Gut shoot away.

take a caliber and measure the difference between a .308 and .243 bullet. .065" difference. that slender difference will never make up the difference on shot placement

No it wont. But again, that is not the discussion, Nor is it about gut shot animals. That reference was about humans and 50 bmgs. But we knew that. Im sure it would be nice if this were a diameter argument only. Its not. "Bigger" means diameter and speed (energy)

Is bigger the better choice? Are blondes better than brunettes? Do you need a 338LM to hunt whitetails at 300 yards. No. How bout at 1200 yards? There are a myriad of variables in determining what rifle/glass/caliber is best for whatever you are planning. But as a simple question, does big kill better than small? Yes. There is a reason you cannot hunt dangerous game in Africa with less than a .375 in every country I know of. Some mins are 45 cal and min energy. Why is that?

Lets rephrase the discussion from big vs small. Everyone who thinks less energy kills better than more energy, raise their hand.

1. Will a 220 gr (.600 bc) 30 cal bullet going 3150fps deliver more devastation to a target than 143 gr (.600 bc) .264/6.5 cal going 3150?

2. Accepting its not about diameter, which one of the above is more likely to give the shooter a greater likelihood for success with a marginal shot?

3. If 2 bullets expand 100%, how much bigger in area is a 338 than a .264? The .264 will expand to .528". The .338 will expand .676". Here's the $64,000 question. How much bigger is the 338 than the 6.5 in frontal area? .264 expands to .88 sq in. The 338? 1.44 sq inches of area to impart energy and create a wound cavity. Go into the garage and get a 7/8" socket and a 1-1/2" socket. Put them side by side and look into the open ends. Anyone still confused should shoot stick to targets. In case you think the 338 not a fair comparison, a 308 expands to .616" and 1.19 sq inches. How bout that diameter thing now?





My 300UM (.308) 215gr@3210 fps and a 308 Win 168 gr@2700 fps are same dia. Anyone confused as to which one is the better killer in every circumstance?

Is my 338lm or Edge a better killer than my 300um? Darn skippy.

If so, I'll explain it for them. Killing is about imparting energy into the target. To impart it you must first have it to impart. Big bullets (Proper construction) going really fast are going to be more lethal in every circumstance. In a marginal shot a big bullet is going to be more likely to kill an animal than a lighter/smaller diameter bullet.

Like I said, physics is physics. The laws are inarguable. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean some people won't try!

 

[Gcan]

I totally agree with you that bigger is better but I was add that I use a 7mmRemMag for everything I've killed so far. My biggest animal to date was a 2,000lb Eland that I shot throgh the lungs at 50 yards. When it didn't drop , I fired a second which hit him above the hip and broke its spine dropping him. The lungs were shredded and that 160gr Barnes X bullet looked tiny compared to the animal it killed.

The 7mm did it's job BUT if I had gut shot him, I would have rather have gut shot him using a 375 or 416 instead.of a 7mm

my ph told me if I shot the Eland thru the chest he wouldn't run more than a mile. I shot him in the neck with a 500 SW mag. Dropped him like a stone at 40 yards. 440 hard cast leas bullet. Virtually no expansion but massive penetration. 7mm great plains game round. With right bullets Hard to beat for most anything under 700 lbs. Will work on bigger animals for certain. I had two guns that day. A 375 and the 500. He gave me two options for shots. The 500 with a soft point thru the lungs or the 375 in the shoulder or lungs. Funny thing bout the 500s and something Id never considered before in America. I was able to load 440 hardcast (solid) and 350 softs alternately. I used black marker on the cylinder to show the 440s. I indexed based on the shot.
The point is my PH knew the 375 would break both shoulders and the 500 wouldn't. Both guns would kill the eland, but the 375 allowed for every shot. I didn't have another mile in me and I wanted to prove to my PH I wouldn't get him killed when he took me for capes with the 500 so I indexed a solid and broke the neck.
Bigger is BIGGER