Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?

[zb338]

I have read and talked to guides and professional hunters. They all
say that the medium bore cartridges have more killing power. I have
seen deer and elk killed with .338 Nosler partition 250 Grain bullet
hit head on and travel the length of a big muley and come out the
back end. The .375 has an even better reputation for killing power.
Zeke

 

[Canhunter35]

No it wont. But again, that is not the discussion, Nor is it about gut shot animals. That reference was about humans and 50 bmgs. But we knew that. Im sure it would be nice if this were a diameter argument only. Its not. "Bigger" means diameter and speed (energy)

Is bigger the better choice? Are blondes better than brunettes? Do you need a 338LM to hunt whitetails at 300 yards. No. How bout at 1200 yards? There are a myriad of variables in determining what rifle/glass/caliber is best for whatever you are planning. But as a simple question, does big kill better than small? Yes. There is a reason you cannot hunt dangerous game in Africa with less than a .375 in every country I know of. Some mins are 45 cal and min energy. Why is that?

Lets rephrase the discussion from big vs small. Everyone who thinks less energy kills better than more energy, raise their hand.

1. Will a 220 gr (.600 bc) 30 cal bullet going 3150fps deliver more devastation to a target than 143 gr (.600 bc) .264/6.5 cal going 3150?

2. Accepting its not about diameter, which one of the above is more likely to give the shooter a greater likelihood for success with a marginal shot?

3. If 2 bullets expand 100%, how much bigger in area is a 338 than a .264? The .264 will expand to .528". The .338 will expand .676". Here's the $64,000 question. How much bigger is the 338 than the 6.5 in frontal area? .264 expands to .88 sq in. The 338? 1.44 sq inches of area to impart energy and create a wound cavity. Go into the garage and get a 7/8" socket and a 1-1/2" socket. Put them side by side and look into the open ends. Anyone still confused should shoot stick to targets. In case you think the 338 not a fair comparison, a 308 expands to .616" and 1.19 sq inches. How bout that diameter thing now?





My 300UM (.308) 215gr@3210 fps and a 308 Win 168 gr@2700 fps are same dia. Anyone confused as to which one is the better killer in every circumstance?

Is my 338lm or Edge a better killer than my 300um? Darn skippy.

If so, I'll explain it for them. Killing is about imparting energy into the target. To impart it you must first have it to impart. Big bullets (Proper construction) going really fast are going to be more lethal in every circumstance. In a marginal shot a big bullet is going to be more likely to kill an animal than a lighter/smaller diameter bullet.

Like I said, physics is physics. The laws are inarguable. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean some people won't try!

I agree.
But I'll quantify my statement further.
Big magnums require an experienced shooter(not a big shooter) and experienced shooter. I've seen a lot of guys toting huge magnums with confidence that they just need to hit their game and it'll cut'em in half. My point is unless you're really gonna go big, it will never ever compensate with being able to shoot well. Of course bigger is better in the hands of a marksman, but unskilled shooters should be using pee shooters(6.5creed, 308, 243) with the attitude that they need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs to make their shot count

 

[Ingwe]

I agree.
But I'll quantify my statement further.
Big magnums require an experienced shooter(not a big shooter) and experienced shooter. I've seen a lot of guys toting huge magnums with confidence that they just need to hit their game and it'll cut'em in half. My point is unless you're really gonna go big, it will never ever compensate with being able to shoot well. Of course bigger is better in the hands of a marksman, but unskilled shooters should be using pee shooters with the awareness that they need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs to make their shot count

I "liked" your post and I agree with it right up until the last sentence.

"Unskilled should be using pea shooters and need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs."

That is a huge contradiction I would say. In unskilled shooter is the last person that should be using a light caliber I would think. I have been shooting my entire life, and I don't know how I would, under hunting conditions, "shoot between the ribs" let alone if there were some wind and/or past 100yards etc.

I think that only a very experienced disciplined shooter should be using a light for game caliber.

 

[Canhunter35]

I "liked" your post and I agree with it right up until the last sentence.

"Unskilled should be using pea shooters and need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs."

That is a huge contradiction I would say. In unskilled shooter is the last person that should be using a light caliber I would think. I have been shooting my entire life, and I don't know how I would, under hunting conditions, "shoot between the ribs" let alone if there were some wind and/or past 100yards etc.

I think that only a very experienced disciplined shooter should be using a light for game caliber.

The last sentence is meant that it should be their attitude with attention to shot placement and a pea shooter is a 6.5creedmoor or 308 and stick to deer until ur experienced. I was exaggerating about between the ribs lol

 

[zb338]

I think most of the guys and gals that use this site have been shooting all
their lives. Most of us were brought up in the country and started out
shooting air guns and then .22 rifles and so on. Anyone that does long
range shooting has to be a pretty darn good rifleman.
Zeke

 

[Ingwe]

The last sentence is meant that it should be their attitude with attention to shot placement and a pea shooter is a 6.5creedmoor or 308 and stick to deer until ur experienced. I was exaggerating about between the ribs lol

LOL so we're in total agreement brother!!

 

[villagelightsmith]

In my state (Oregon) it's legal to hunt bear and elk with any 6mm or larger diameter centerfire. Now about my .25 ACP....

(Don't do it, Willard! You'll just make 'im mad!)

 

[JASmith]

The unskilled should NOT be hunting.

That said, there is a huge difference in shooting skill needed to accurately place shots between the .243 Win, .270 Win, 30-06, and 375 H&H. All routinely turn in rapid kills for 150 lb class deer.

That is one reason the 243 is so popular and why the 270 gained an excellent reputation for all classes of deer.

 

[Gcan]

I agree.
But I'll quantify my statement further.
Big magnums require an experienced shooter(not a big shooter) and experienced shooter. I've seen a lot of guys toting huge magnums with confidence that they just need to hit their game and it'll cut'em in half. My point is unless you're really gonna go big, it will never ever compensate with being able to shoot well. Of course bigger is better in the hands of a marksman, but unskilled shooters should be using pee shooters(6.5creed, 308, 243) with the attitude that they need to thread the needle, or aim between the ribs to make their shot count

I agree with you.

Like I said. Lots of factors. From a purely academic standpoint, Bigger is better. Clearly, not in every "person's" case. Recoil sensitive is certainly a factor. Big kicks more than small. Big generally weighs more than small. People who cannot shoot probably shouldn't hunt or they should limit their distances. So, notwithstanding the human element, is a big caliber at speed more forgiving on a marginal shot than a small caliber at speed. Absolutely.

I'm going back home to hunt whitetails in a few weeks. I'm taking a 300SAUM and a 460 SW mag. I could take almost anything from 243-458. For the hunting I'm doing, the 300SAUM is big enough for all the conditions I expect to encounter. Is it a lot for deer? Perhaps at 100 yards, but not on corn fields or power lines where undisturbed deer are often found @ 600 plus. For the walks to stands where shots are likely under 150 yrds, I'll use the 460 SW.

In a vacuum bigger Is better. However, what we do, where we do it, how we do it and when we do it must be part of the question. Otherwise "is bigger better?" is no more relevant than "how far is up?"

g

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

I see the typical arguments above regarding the sim differences in bullet diameter. To my way of thinking, the people making those arguments ignore that fact that larger diameters are usually accompanied by more massive bullets. I use a .243 Win/95g SST and .257 Roberts/110g AB for antelope. While I'm sure I could kill an elk with either of these, I'll take a heavier bullet at the same velocity.

The 95g SST will not penetrate the length of an elk, nor would I trust the .257" 110AB to do so. On the flip side, I don't doubt the ability of a 225g .338" SST or AB to penetrate with massive destruction - based on multiple elk personally taken with that combination.

What kills is the destruction of vital processes. That destruction requires energy and momentum. For any given velocity, more massive bullets have more. It isn't rocket science.

 

[FEENIX]

Would you rather be shot wit a .22 or a .50 caliber?... I think that is the point of the statement... A 300 grain 338 bullet or a 95 grain 6.. bullet using your example... Marksmanship can be a factor in how either one preforms .... I guess how much more can dead be. This is a long range forum... So bigger heavier bullets that retain energy and buck the wind on the larger calibers that push the limits is always going to be preferable at long range .. Dave

^^^This!^^^ No need to complicate it unnecessarily. The "NUT" behind the trigger remains the biggest factor ... period!

 

[Thescandinavian]

Out of respect for the game everyone should shoot with the most powerful cartridge they can shoot accurate with.
A faster or larger diameter bullet will result in more humane kills if shoot placement is the same and a bad one won't forgive you, but will be more forgiving.
If you can't handle recoil that well your a much better hunter if you go for small case 30 caliber, 7mm or even a 6.5.
A 700NE will leave a bigger hole resulting in faster droop in blood pressure, but won't do any good in a area where there is no vitals or large blood vessels.

 

[Coyote_Hunter]

Out of respect for the game everyone should shoot with the most powerful cartridge they can shoot accurate with.
...

I hear that sentiment a lot and disagree with it. My most powerful cartridge is what I call my "Rhino Blaster" load - a .45-70, 460g hardcast at 1812fps. I shoot it pretty well but it is a) not a long range proposition with my setup, and b) a bruiser on both ends. I'm talking shoulder damaging, retina detaching recoil. My second most powerful load is probably my .45-70 again, this time with a 350g @ 2181fps. I shoot it well enough to get consistent knockovers on steel rams at 600 meters and took an elk at 213 lasered yards. Althoug the hit was perfectly placed and the bull never took a step, I've had faster kills with 7mm RM, .30-06, .300WM and .338WM.

Neither bigger nor smaller, nor more or less powerful is always better. I do agree that an adequate choice should be made out of respect for the game animal in question. For antelope I most often use my .257 Roberts with +P loads of 100g TTSX or 110g AB. For elk, the few times it has gone, that Roberts gets a 120g A-Frame. But mostly it is a 7mm RM, .30-06, .300 WM or .338 WM. All three have proven to be equally effective, with the 7mm RM taking more elk than all my other rifles combined, with no drama.

This year I will be taking two rifles elk hunting, as is my norm. They will be two of the following:
.280 Rem, 140g TTSX or AB
.300WM, 175g LRX
.338WM, 225g AB

Have yet to decide but all shoot very well for me (was consistently ringing the steel at 500 and 600 yards with all three yesterday.) Leaning toward the 140g TTSX if I take the .280 as I know it will penetrate to the vitals from any angle.

 

[robert l]

Would you rather be shot wit a .22 or a .50 caliber?... I think that is the point of the statement... A 300 grain 338 bullet or a 95 grain 6.. bullet using your example... Marksmanship can be a factor in how either one preforms .... I guess how much more can dead be. This is a long range forum... So bigger heavier bullets that retain energy and buck the wind on the larger calibers that push the limits is always going to be preferable at long range .. Dave

I saw a vid on here showing a inpact at like 700 yards.And the shock wave going though the deer was devastating.I was straight on shot with the deers head and the bullet hit right behind his head.You could see the wave go though all the way to his but.the round was a 338 lupua.