Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?

[dfanonymous]

Perhaps you missed a post. I agree, there is little practical difference between .264" to .308" and .338" in their undisturbed state. The reason big Is better is because bullets expand. A 338 @ 100% expansion becomes 1.4 square inches in frontal area. The 6.5 becomes .9 sq inches. Doesn't sound like much. (it is - grab a compass and a draw 1.4" circle and one .9"inside it) Assuming both were making 2000 ftlbs at same speed the larger bullet will transfer more energy into an animal and disrupt more tissue than the smaller. The reason 338lm, 375C and 50s often literally cut a human in half shooting only FMJ is the size of the temporary wound cavity/canal. From a 50, the cavity in tissue is larger around than a human is wide. Animals are liquid. Rule #1. Liquids can not be compressed. The more energy imparted into liquid the more it must move in response. I'm not arguing shooting skills, recoil sensitivity or bullet construction. In a marginal shot the larger expanded bullet is going to affect more tissue with a greater opportunity to hit/break/cut something vital.

And yes, I was surprised the 270 failed to penetrate as well. In that case, it was more about bullet construction. However, there are numerous accounts of bullets hitting large animals and failing to penetrate. particularly on wet animals.

Below are some recovered bullets from real world use. 270 grain 375H&H, 440 grain hard cast lead 500 SW and two 180 grain 30-06.
The 375s speak for themselves.

The near Pristine 500 bullet hit a gemsbok in the sternum, passed thru the length of the body (lungs, stomach, intestines) broke the rear left leg and came to rest in the hide. There are lots of smaller rounds going faster with more energy than a 500 SW that wouldn't have done that even shooting a solid.

The 500 thats all chewed up shattered the spine and then destroyed the right shoulder on a 2000lb eland.

Perhaps the best examples are visual ones. The expanded 375s beside 30 cal bullets. All three did their jobs. They all expanded to the max. The difference between .308" and .375" in diameter seems insignificant. Not so insignificant in practice is it?

So, this being my last post on this subject I will simply state that I'll bet my 10 year old granddaughter could tell me which one of those is the better killer.

I guess I'm out.

If you've ever shot anything or anyone with a .50 bmg you'd be as absolutely confident as I am that it does not cut thing in half.

 

[Orange Dust]

I guess I'm out.

If you've ever shot anything or anyone with a .50 bmg you'd be as absolutely confident as I am that it does not cut thing in half.

Yea, knew an old farmer, passed away now, that took multiple hits from a 50cal machine gun in Korea and lived, or so the story went. Never saw him with his shirt off. I do know that the concept is valid. On thin skinned game if the temp wound channel exceeds body size much it is nasty. Case in point, same 8mm wildcat with a Seirra FB designed for 8MM Mauser, 175gr if I remember right, maybe 170. Anyway, shot a deer @ 100 or a little less. Inedible. Think ground squirrel shot with a swift. It was that bad. Experience says impact velocity and a thin jacket are the key ingredients to really tearing stuff up. Back in the day we were always looking for the ultimate flat shooting load to shoot across big beanfields. I remember when Ballistic tips came out. Couldn't wait to try those flat shooting bullets. Loaded some 150's in a 26" 300 Weatherby to hotter than max. Dad shot at a big buck in the woods and missed. He ran right by me and I swung through him and pulled the trigger. Range was maybe 20yds. Hit him in the front shoulder and, honest to god, broke three legs. Blew the off shoulder completely off and a piece of bone, or pieces of bone destroyed the offside hip. Only thing edible was near hip and part of the backstrap. Dad said it was too much gun, but it was the bullet choice. Went to 200gr partitions and you could eat right up to the bullet hole. Telling the error of my ways in the past in hopes that they won't be repeated.

 

[Gcan]

No its not. I've seen a hogs gristle plate stop a 130gr power point, and it wasn't a big hog. Depends on the bullet he used. A heavy partition most likely would have gotten through. This is a classic case of small for animal caliber. Similar to a .223 on a deer, or a 257 on elk. Will work fine if everything goes right. This is exactly what the discussion is about. I shot a buck at about 500 one afternoon with a 257 wby. Only got one lung. Caught up with him a couple days later and shot him in the neck with a 300. When we cleaned him everyone agreed he would have lived. Center punched one lung and caught the back of the other. Bullet lodged in the seam where the ribs meet the diaphram. Would have died quickly if shot with the 300. Bullet was an old nosler 120 gr solid base. Great rifle for deer to about 400 or so, not enough gun further. On the opposite end one tome i shor a big 10pt thought to be wounded. We were looking for him and he busted out and was running across a beanfield. Range was 600 give or take. I lead him and shot at him. Gun was a 8mm wildcat shooting a 210gr j26 at 3200. I didn't lead him enough. Shot through both hams. Did not hit the artery or bone. He went down and couldnt get up. Had to shoot him again, but he didnt go anywhere. 4" hole through both hams and massive trauma. Good examples of difference between big for animal guns and just enough. This is how it is. Anyone who thinks big fast guns dont kill better than little fast guns hasnt shot much game. Shooting deer with a rum, 30-378 or Warbird is just like coyote hunting with a 25-06. Kill the same and will tear him up the same with a less than perfect hit. I shot 190 ablr's in my rum last year. First deer i shot was quartering a little toward me. Hit the scapula and almost blew him in two. Exit was the size of a large pizza. Was much more careful with the other 3. Baseball exit. Instant death on all 4.

I guess I'm out.

If you've ever shot anything or anyone with a .50 bmg you'd be as absolutely confident as I am that it does not cut thing in half.

I guess I'm out.

If you've ever shot anything or anyone with a .50 bmg you'd be as absolutely confident as I am that it does not cut thing in half.

 

[Gcan]

Well I left this conversation but glad to comment on the 50bmg. Lot of experience with them. Building 5 right now. Yes they do separate torsos from hips. They explode people. Even FMJs do.
I'm sure it would be inappropriate to post images. If its something you haven't seen then you have likely not seen many center mass shots. I'm sure seeing someone hit in a leg, arm or shoulder hasn't seen a 2-for. In the movies pistols throw people. 50s, even 338s really do move humans.
I hunted deer for a while with a custom 50. 750 Amax. Discovered quickly I Had to center body shoot (gut side of diaphragm) them on purpose and it still ripped them completely or mostly in half. The more resistance the worse it is. Shoot a 300lb hog with one. Ive seen the eyes pop on a hog hit in the shoulder

shoot a 55 gal drum full of water. They tear wide open. People are just a bit less resilient than a steel drum.

i try to avoid conversations with some ppl. The first one is Keith Warren -missing a deer - with a 50bmg. Watch it.



the second is Jer shooting 16" of Ballistic gel. You can see why some people survive. Then he adds more gel. So add a bone or anything that disturbs the bullet and imagine the temporary wound cavity if that gel was a human. Its bigger than a human is wide.



50s explode people but some people survive lightning.

 

[Gcan]

Well I left this conversation but glad to comment on the 50bmg. Lot of experience with them. Building 5 right now. Yes they do separate torsos from hips. They explode people. Even FMJs do.
I'm sure it would be inappropriate to post images. If its something you haven't seen then you have likely not seen many center mass shots. I'm sure seeing someone hit in a leg, arm or shoulder hasn't seen a 2-for. In the movies pistols throw people. 50s, even 338s really do move humans.
I hunted deer for a while with a custom 50. 750 Amax. Discovered quickly I Had to center body shoot (gut side of diaphragm) them on purpose and it still ripped them completely or mostly in half. The more resistance the worse it is. Shoot a 300lb hog with one. Ive seen the eyes pop on a hog hit in the shoulder

shoot a 55 gal drum full of water. They tear wide open. People are just a bit less resilient than a steel drum.

i try to avoid conversations with some ppl. The first one is Keith Warren -missing a deer - with a 50bmg. Watch it.



the second is Jer shooting 16" of Ballistic gel. You can see why some people survive. Then he adds more gel. So add a bone or anything that disturbs the bullet and imagine the temporary wound cavity if that gel was a human. Its bigger than a human is wide.



50s explode people but some people survive lightning.

 

[Gcan]

 

[Orange Dust]

I can only imagine what would happen with your 50 with a thin jacketed bullet lightened to 500grs or so to get the velocity up. Most likely would destroy a moose. Seems like getting the velocity up to 3600 or so with a soft bullet less than half that weight is unbelievably destructive.

 

[DSheetz]

BMG I think stands for Browning Machine Gun not the ammo the ammo comes in differing loads for different uses soft targets hard targets ect. . Hydraulic shock does some pretty amazing things .

 

[Gcan]

I can only imagine what would happen with your 50 with a thin jacketed bullet lightened to 500grs or so to get the velocity up. Most likely would destroy a moose. Seems like getting the velocity up to 3600 or so with a soft bullet less than half that weight is unbelievably destructive.

Probably lot like 22-250 varmageddon bullet.

 

[Gcan]

BMG I think stands for Browning Machine Gun not the ammo the ammo comes in differing loads for different uses soft targets hard targets ect. . Hydraulic shock does some pretty amazing things .

there are lots of 50s. 50bmg is the designation of both the Browning 50 cal and also the ammo.

the Barretts and tac 50s shoot the 50BMG. I suppose its the 50BMGR. Browning Machine Gun Round

 

[Orange Dust]

Probably lot like 22-250 varmageddon bullet.

I would suspision so with my experience with .30 and 8MM. I also suspect you could also do it to an elk with the CheyTac based Allen Magnums or the Chey's themselves.

 

[Gcan]

I would suspision so with my experience with .30 and 8MM. I also suspect you could also do it to an elk with the CheyTac based Allen Magnums or the Chey's themselves.

Sold my 338AM. Have a cheytac 310m would be interesting experiment. Maybe flat base a solid copper round and hollow point it at 200 or so.

 

[Orange Dust]

Ought to work. If you can get the velocity to 36-3700 range and keep the range 200 or so, it would be a real bomb. Dont really have to worry about getting the bullet to come apart, just hit a heavy bone, makes great flesh shredding projectiles. For those of you that dont understand how this works, first you have to have a gun much larger than needed for the game. Result is the same as a varmint rifle on small rodents, just scaled up.

 

[Gcan]

Ought to work. If you can get the velocity to 36-3700 range and keep the range 200 or so, it would be a real bomb. Dont really have to worry about getting the bullet to come apart, just hit a heavy bone, makes great flesh shredding projectiles. For those of you that dont understand how this works, first you have to have a gun much larger than needed for the game. Result is the same as a varmint rifle on small rodents, just scaled up.

probably try it.