Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[fordy]

The terminal performance of the Hammers is outstanding. While it's nothing close to the volume you've stacked up (I appreciate all the info, photos, etc that you share) , I've killed a handful of big bodied Whitetails and a bunch of hogs with them at distances up to about 300 yards. All have had exit wounds (including a mature hog that was head shot at about 300 yards) and all have either been dead right there, or traveled 30 yards max with unbelievable blood trails. The terminal design of the Hammers is close to perfect IMO. There's plenty info on this site and elsewhere supporting this. But the BC's need improvement for bucking the wind at longer ranges. In a heavy for caliber mono like a 200 grain .308 or 155 grain .284 the first number in the G7 BC should be a legitimate 3.

Last year I stacked up a few animals with the PVA Cayuga's. Nothing went further than 30 yards, but blood trails were pretty sparse. Had similar experience using Federal trophy copper ammunition several years ago (before I started reloading) with several elk and a whitetail at ranges of 400 to 600 yards. All died within eyesight but blood trails were not what I've seen with the Hammers, not even close.I've got a bunch of the 195 Badlands loaded up in a new 300 WSM, will try them out this Fall and see how they do.

The perfect bullet for my use would be if Hammer can keep their terminal performance while modifying the design to achieve the actual higher BC's that Badlands, PVA, Cutting Edge, etc are achieving, Or one of the other higher BC mono manufacturers mentioned above figures out how to design a pill with the terminal performance of Hammers by testing different hollow point diameters and depths, possibly different alloys.

Then we'd really be on to something.

Gday JTH
shh on numbers I'll get called out again lol

Looking forward to your results this fall
Take notice of the velocity brackets they impact @ & please take heaps of pics

Yes subtle changes are extremely noticeable/ important along with alloy so to the heading of this thread
Bullet construction is terminal

The last line is a great one

Cheers

 

[fordy]

Actual field data? I think you and @fordy might be in the wrong thread...

(Please pardon the sarcasm - I appreciate your contributions greatly)

Gday handskills
field data I like Lou's & others the ones we need to be careful of are the ones that are copied & pasted or read & interpretation occurs then that get worse when they try to relay that information

You said wrong thread maybe that should be broadened to forum
Bet I get a few likes on that lol although it maybe in silence
cheers

 

[xsn10s]

These groups were shot back to back with the same wind hold (I think around an 8-10MPH wind) and a good zero at 600 yards. Also using advertised BC's. The Berger's were around 2900fps and the 131 hammers were near 3100 fps if I remember correctly. Just under 1 MOA of extra wind drift with the lower BC bullet going 200fps faster. Wind going from right to left.
View attachment 491803

Did you use a ballistics app for both loads? Do you have any load data for both? TIA

 

[Idaho Lefty]

The "NUT" behind the trigger remains the biggest factor.

BECAUSE,. Most Hunters, do NOT,.. PRACTICE shooting their Rifles, ENOUGH, in ALL,.. Field positions !
HENCE WHY,. I / we in my family use, affordable Bullets that, are accurate and, Kill,.. "well".
My grandson has now killed, TWO very large bodied, Desert Muley's with, Berger, 87 gr Hunting VLD's out of a .243 Win.
We had him Practice, on 5 different Trips to the Desert, BEFORE he ever, pulled the Trigger on Game at, 12 y/o.
After several Spring / Summers practice sessions again at 13 yrs old, he put, a huge, 30+ inch, tall & heavy horned, 4 X 5 on the ground.
He told me, "Grandpa, I picked my spot, behind his shoulder and slowly Squeezed the Trigger on the Tikka and, it just, went,.. OFF"
I said, "YUP,. that's the way, it's supposed to, go"

 

[FEENIX]

BECAUSE,. Most Hunters, do NOT,.. PRACTICE shooting their Rifles, ENOUGH, in ALL,.. Field positions !
HENCE WHY,. I / we in my family use, affordable Bullets that, are accurate and, Kill,.. "well".
My grandson has now killed, TWO very large bodied, Desert Muley's with, Berger, 87 gr Hunting VLD's out of a .243 Win.
We had him Practice, on 5 different Trips to the Desert, BEFORE he ever, pulled the Trigger on Game at, 12 y/o.
After several Spring / Summers practice sessions again at 13 yrs old, he put, a huge, 30+ inch, tall & heavy horned, 4 X 5 on the ground.
He told me, "Grandpa, I picked my spot, behind his shoulder and slowly Squeezed the Trigger on the Tikka and, it just, went,.. OFF"
I said, "YUP,. that's the way, it's supposed to, go"

Well said, Sir! Your grandson is lucky to have you.

The "NUT" behind the trigger is responsible for:
- choosing the right bullet/load/rifle set-up
- practice, practice, practice
- the 10 commandments of firearm safety
- respect of wild game - afield to table
- and many more.

Pulling the trigger is the easy part; facing the consequences associated with it is another story.

 

[Noobie]

I think you are right about the 225 gr. It will work. The others are too long if you want to use your magazine. With the 225 gr BD2 you can expect best in class penetration, and can kill anything in North America.

Sounds good. Might even go with the 200 grain one for more velocity.

 

[HARPERC]

We're on a LONG RANGE forum and specifically this thread is referring to 1000 yards. So that distance should be the minimum for extrapolating data.

My read of the OP was any range up to 1000 yards, at any angle.

Forum to me has always been about defining individually what LRH means. Certainly the philosophy is to provide a safe place for discussion of extending ranges. If I recall the concept was from Len shooting a deer at less than 500 yards. Meaning no need to get caught up in peer pressure to out run a skill set one doesn't currently possess, or hold yourself back for reasons imposed by someone else. Or as has been said use what works for "YOUR" needs. I'm not knocking the guys that shoot to the horizon, as I've seen plenty of close range outcomes less than ideal, neither do I disrespect those still considering 200 yards a tough shot, and working at farther. Keep it real whatever that is to you.

Its not reasonable to me, to choose a bullet for twice the range your skills, and the rest of your system are capable of.

 

[BEEMAN]

When did 72 hours become "almost a week?" Kind of reasonable for such a detailed answer about just 1 of your questions.

Is this more reasonable? OP still hasn't answered my questions and I don't think he will. Either he doesn't want to or can't answer them for some reason. This could of been a very informative thread.

 

[Northkill]

@HARPERC

My read of the OP was any range up to 1000 yards, at any angle.

Forum to me has always been about defining individually what LRH means. Certainly the philosophy is to provide a safe place for discussion of extending ranges. If I recall the concept was from Len shooting a deer at less than 500 yards. Meaning no need to get caught up in peer pressure to out run a skill set one doesn't currently possess, or hold yourself back for reasons imposed by someone else. Or as has been said use what works for "YOUR" needs. I'm not knocking the guys that shoot to the horizon, as I've seen plenty of close range outcomes less than ideal, neither do I disrespect those still considering 200 yards a tough shot, and working at farther. Keep it real whatever that is to you.

Its not reasonable to me, to choose a bullet for twice the range your skills, and the rest of your system are capable of.

I like your sentiments, brother.

 

[Huntnful]

My read of the OP was any range up to 1000 yards, at any angle.

Forum to me has always been about defining individually what LRH means. Certainly the philosophy is to provide a safe place for discussion of extending ranges. If I recall the concept was from Len shooting a deer at less than 500 yards. Meaning no need to get caught up in peer pressure to out run a skill set one doesn't currently possess, or hold yourself back for reasons imposed by someone else. Or as has been said use what works for "YOUR" needs. I'm not knocking the guys that shoot to the horizon, as I've seen plenty of close range outcomes less than ideal, neither do I disrespect those still considering 200 yards a tough shot, and working at farther. Keep it real whatever that is to you.

Its not reasonable to me, to choose a bullet for twice the range your skills, and the rest of your system are capable of.

Valid statement for sure. OP posted, up to 1000 yards, like you said. Thread was getting unnecessarily side tracked with things that aren't even terminally capable (via the manufacturer) at that distance. My apologies.

 

[HARPERC]

Valid statement for sure. OP posted, up to 1000 yards, like you said. Thread was getting unnecessarily side tracked with things that aren't even terminally capable (via the manufacturer) at that distance. My apologies.

No malice, no foul, observed, no apology needed. Just discussion.

 

[ButterBean]

My read of the OP was any range up to 1000 yards, at any angle.

Forum to me has always been about defining individually what LRH means. Certainly the philosophy is to provide a safe place for discussion of extending ranges. If I recall the concept was from Len shooting a deer at less than 500 yards. Meaning no need to get caught up in peer pressure to out run a skill set one doesn't currently possess, or hold yourself back for reasons imposed by someone else. Or as has been said use what works for "YOUR" needs. I'm not knocking the guys that shoot to the horizon, as I've seen plenty of close range outcomes less than ideal, neither do I disrespect those still considering 200 yards a tough shot, and working at farther. Keep it real whatever that is to you.

Its not reasonable to me, to choose a bullet for twice the range your skills, and the rest of your system are capable of.

Thank you Sir

 

[asd9055]

BECAUSE,. Most Hunters, do NOT,.. PRACTICE shooting their Rifles, ENOUGH, in ALL,.. Field positions !
HENCE WHY,. I / we in my family use, affordable Bullets that, are accurate and, Kill,.. "well".
My grandson has now killed, TWO very large bodied, Desert Muley's with, Berger, 87 gr Hunting VLD's out of a .243 Win.
We had him Practice, on 5 different Trips to the Desert, BEFORE he ever, pulled the Trigger on Game at, 12 y/o.
After several Spring / Summers practice sessions again at 13 yrs old, he put, a huge, 30+ inch, tall & heavy horned, 4 X 5 on the ground.
He told me, "Grandpa, I picked my spot, behind his shoulder and slowly Squeezed the Trigger on the Tikka and, it just, went,.. OFF"
I said, "YUP,. that's the way, it's supposed to, go"

Great job Grandpa! Can't wait till my granddaughter is old enough

 

[RockyMtnMT]

When Alex talks, I always pay attention. I learned a lot from his postings.
I am trying to understand the comparison. Are we talking same caliber, same mass, same velocity, different BC, or same caliber/cartridge, different everything. I like to picture things so I can understand them.
Thanks

I ran a 199g vs 215g with about 200 fps advantage in mv for the lighter bullet. I can re post the video but it gets some folks very angry. I can say that I did not know how the drift was going to compare. I assumed that the lighter bullet with lower bc would have a bit more. It did not. I was holding 3moa for both.