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Bullet Construction vs Lethality

True, but if we get a big enough caliber......
What caliber (or chambering) are you proposing?
I've yet to find a bullet that wasn't lethal. Lucky I guess.
I'm starting this thread to discuss issues regarding the materials, design and construction of rifle hunting bullets in so far as it relates to lethality, which, for the purposes of the thread, will be defined as the ability of the bullet to penetrate deeply at any impact angle or distance up to 1000 yds to reach vital organs and effect a one shot kill rapidly. Factors to consider are BC, ductility of bullet material, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy (<1MOA), weight retention, type of expansion ( petal vs mushrooming vs explosive vs petal shedding).
The OP's parameter is up to 1000Y. As you can see above, the OP has some challenging parameters. Bullet consideration and the delivery system to ensure lethality at POI are critical. For instance, I have some Hornady 220 Interlock RNs in .308 caliber. I know they are lethal from close to mid-range, but it will not be my choice for 1000Y hunting as I have more suitable choices. My preference for the same caliber bullets is Berger 190, 210, and 215 out of my .300 WSM/WM or 230, 245 out of my .30 LARA. If I need more OOMPH, I have some Berger 250 and 300 to propel out of my .338 Thor. Cheers!
 
Gday
I see a few more pages since I was last on here & thought the op heading was going to get into what was what but 🤷‍♂️ maybe hope

So

Tips & construction of them & how they are married to the pill has been extremely important to get a consistent result then add the alloys that are used from c&c to monos & it's a Pandora's box as so many variables & a lot of times you see one covered & another shows up
& I'll back nrailer upto a point on how these tip material's behave once in critters
From caps , ball bearings , aluminium, brass ,copper ,polymer etc
But I'm going to need time which I am struggling with so here is what I've got for now

Tips that plug the hp from a shatter / snap of the tip material are basically useless & when they do this they are creating a pill that is is for all intensive purposes a true solid yes the hp becomes plugged yep get that so moving on

@Nrailer please please take the following as constructive criticism as aluminium tips have their strengths yep totally agree but you already have that part covered so why not look @ where improvements can be made & I DO believe you can improve on yours as was shown with the afterburner as this aluminium tip is the best aluminium tip on the market imo ( well the design is as I don't know if different aluminium is used in tips 🤷‍♂️ ) & this is where you get a way better pill if the ejection or wedge system can work across many resistances /angles/ velocities but the tip is only part of the equation & im leaving that alone as if you don't get the design that can operate under a wider range of circumstances it don't matter what's behind the tip it will fail more than a well designed tip

I'll back up this with your own pictures & look here ( I've also got my own & multiple companies )

View attachment 494324
The read arrows are part of where your issues are now please nrailer or people don't get on the bandwagon of im causing problems as if this information is addressed in the same manner as hammer & apex have taken it you will get a better pill & that raises the bar as has been proven with aluminium tips in the apex & also the polymer in the hammer ( I'm staying clear of hammers while trying to compare apples with apples ) so isn't that better for us hunters 🤔imo yes
Ea take the information as one wishes but please don't assume
Now add angles /resistances to the above picture & you'll understand why a pill behaves like it does on a pretty regular basis

Also think of how a mechanical broadhead works as this will broaden one's knowledge of what a tip pill or a hp does under some situations
This broadhead comparison is not from me & took me ages to understand what was meant by it & it was from one of the great minds I'm lucky to have discussions with who have been able to show what I find in the field as the why's but to understand the above clear one's mind is the hardest part well was for me


Side thought for gel testers to potentially consider can you not do gel tests @ angles ( say have a 45degree front of the gel block while it still retains its normal rectangle length ) to see how this effects the actuals of what a pill ACTUALLY does sometimes in a critter
Just a thought & don't know if it is possible or would work

Cheers
deleted ,covered in post 922
 
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Commercially available aluminum is a polycrystalline material consisting of many fine 'grains' (crystals) randomly oriented. The crystal structure is face centered cubic (FCC), and the slip planes coincide with the crystal structure and are thus randomly distributed. There are various commercially available alloys, the most common being 3003 with just a bit of manganese used in such things as cooking pans. This can only be strenghened by cold working. Alloys such as 2024 (with Cu), 6061 (with Mg and Si), and 7075 (Zn, Mg, Cr and Cu) can be strengthened by solution treating then precipitation hardening. The tiny precipitates jam the slip planes in the crystals. This is vastly different than quenching and tempering as used for steel alloys. Rolled bar (as opposed to extruded bar) has elongated grains in the direction of rolling, yet the crystals are still randomly oriented. It does, however, work harden the material and produce different properties in the direction of rolling.
 
Commercially available aluminum is a polycrystalline material consisting of many fine 'grains' (crystals) randomly oriented. The crystal structure is face centered cubic (FCC), and the slip planes coincide with the crystal structure and are thus randomly distributed. There are various commercially available alloys, the most common being 3003 with just a bit of manganese used in such things as cooking pans. This can only be strenghened by cold working. Alloys such as 2024 (with Cu), 6061 (with Mg and Si), and 7075 (Zn, Mg, Cr and Cu) can be strengthened by solution treating then precipitation hardening. The tiny precipitates jam the slip planes in the crystals. This is vastly different than quenching and tempering as used for steel alloys. Rolled bar (as opposed to extruded bar) has elongated grains in the direction of rolling, yet the crystals are still randomly oriented. It does, however, work harden the material and produce different properties in the direction of rolling.

I knew that!!!! 😂 memtb
 
My family hunted lots in the 60's and 70's

Mostly 180 gr nosler partitions in 30-06 over old military 4831 dipped out of a 20 lb or so drum. Hundreds of deer and elk killed so they worked even at long range (probably over 600) yards but horrible trajectory!!

I started shooting 130 and 150 higher bc I. 270 and 30-06 with good results

Then Barnes came out with the x and I tried some 180s on my 06. Horrible results. No shock. Acted like FMJ.

In California so now no lead!

Then tsx ttsx and lrx came out. Was shooting 110 to 130 in 270 win and 130 to 150 in 06. I was really happy with the performance on game. Never had a failure on game but sometimes accuracy was a problem

Then talked to Steve at hammer and ordered light for caliber hammers. Have had great results with several guns from 6mm rem to 7 rem mag great accuracy and really quick kills
Now shooting the hammer hht and love them

I have not used other coppers so have no experience with them

My experience is somewhat limited-about 20 deer, two antelope, one Javalina, two elk and probably over 75 to100 hogs

I will continue to use copper and not go back to lead even if hunting where it is legal. I can shoot at all reasonable range and not worry about over or under expansion
 
Probably go with 338 caliber, Sierra bullets,338 Federal on the low end and 338-378 Weatherby Magnum on the upper end.Cover most of the bases, hunting wise.
2nd the Sierra 250gr SBT, 2800fps. Dozens of elk personally killed with this bullet, none got away. All pass thru shots, except for 1 gut shot, bullet found on far side of hide. Weighed 76%, nice large mushroom .
 
2nd the Sierra 250gr SBT, 2800fps. Dozens of elk personally killed with this bullet, none got away. All pass thru shots, except for 1 gut shot, bullet found on far side of hide. Weighed 76%, nice large mushroom .
The 250 gr. Sierra SPBT works fine at that speed. Out of a 338 RUM I had them going 3030 fps and they blew up and failed to penetrate on a mule deer and a spike elk. Killed the deer but made a mess out of it. The spike (at about 75 yards) was knocked down with first shot, got back up and hit it with a second, and still had to finish it off when I got to it.
 
When we began our journey into making bullets, we knew that we wanted to open the nose of the bullet like a banana and shed those petals to achieve a flat front retained shank. Like shooting a flat based bullet backward. Again based on the Rathcoombe physics paper showing this form to create the largest wound channel and longest penetration. In the beginning we gave no thought to the process of shedding weight or what that shed weight did. Animal testing showed us that there was something to the shedding. Several things actually. 1st, there is a shock that happens that moment of opening and shedding. Much greater than a bullet that opens but retains all of it's weight. I'll come back to this. 2nd, without shedding the frontal area of the bullet becomes too large causing it to slow down too rapidly robbing it of its ability to make a large permanent wound channel. Remember vital tissue is elastic and the faster an object goes through it the more permanent disruption it makes. As a bullet slows the wound that it makes becomes smaller until it stops where is no longer makes any wound. Too large a frontal area and a rounded shape lessen the wounding. 3rd, the shed weight increases the stability of the retained shank aiding in longer straight line, meplat forward, penetration. 4th, a flat front retained shank is less likely to deflect off angled bone impacts. Whether it is edge of bone or angled shots. Again, better straight line penetration. 5th, the wounding that happens from the shed pieces as they pass through the animal. Yep, that's right. the shed petals from our bullet often exit the far side around the exit from the retained shank. Radiating at a very slight angle. This greatly increases the total area of the permanent wound channel.

Back to number 1. We control the amount of shed weight based on how deep we make the hollow point. This shed weight will remain the same with high or low velocity impacts. This is due to the raw material that we use, not any kind of scoring or broaching done to the bullet. @nralifer is correct about the brittle coppers breaking and tearing too much. We used that copper in the beginning because we could get it to shed but it is very velocity dependent on how much bullet weight would be retained. Too deep a HP and it would come undone to several pieces at low vel. Too shallow and it would not lose enough weight and would break the nose off into a newly pointed bullet. Not good, but all we could find at the time and other big companies used it. High vel is easy with almost all copper. Back to our copper. If this shedding weight is a good thing, then shedding more is a better thing. Right? Well, that turns out not to be true. There is a dwell time that takes place during the moment that the bullet opens and sheds. If not shedding enough it lessens the shock and the extra wounding done by the shed pieces. If shedding too much, it takes longer for it to happen and too much bullet vel is lost to the process of shedding, lessening the size of the permanent wound channel due to lack of vel and lack of penetration. Over the years we have made some of our hollow points deeper and now in some cases coming nearly full circle to where we started. Not quite, still shedding more than what we started out doing. As a formula guy, this frustrating because there is no formula to it. Depends on nose length, and caliber, along with sectional density and other things. Over time it has become more of a feeling when looking at a new bullet design and determining how much of it to shed to get the most out of it.

Tips are another thing. I swore that Hammer Bullets would never have a tip. The tip is just a plug in the hole that has to be evacuated in order to get fluid into the hollow point to expand the bullet from the inside out. We tried aluminum tips and copper tips. They inhibited low vel performance and would break out to the side, causing irregular deformation and deflecting, along with changing direction of travel. Unpredictable straight line penetration. We had pretty well written off tips. As long range guys we wanted them to work in the worst way but there was no way we could market a bullet that had a lesser terminal performance than our current line of bullets. Consistent terminal performance matters more than anything else. Now we have a line of tipped bullets. Our good buddy @pickens72 came out to visit a bit over a year ago and pushed us to make a tipped bullet. We gave in, mostly to prove to him that it wouldn't work. This time we designed around a particular tip design of poly. Dang if it didn't work. I don't want to give him too much credit, it'll go to his head! So we set out testing on animals for the next year and tweaking as we went. We were personally part of over 100 animal tests and we also got them into the hands of others that shot more animals than we did. Particularly @fordy who set out to make it fail and couldn't. I know he pushed something close 1000 animals in his testing. He can verify the numbers. This design does not deflect like other tipped bullets on angled bone shots and we are actually seeing better terminal results at low to mid range impact velocity. 2800 fps down the wound channel stays the same. Defying common knowledge that the wound will get smaller with less vel. Has to do with tip material, bullet material, and how the two are married together. Again no broaching or scoring of the bullet to encourage deformation, maintaining the proper amount of force and time needed for full deformation and shedding, maximizing the initial shock from deformation and keeping the shed petals on the same straight line penetration of the retained shank.

I am not trying to P in anyone's cheerios. I think @nralifer is making a fine product and he looks at this from a different angle than I do. I do like talking about material and design to reach the end goal of the best possible product. I think we all (in the business) strive to make better. This is just some of the evolution of how we got to this point so far.
I admire your intense interest & experience in Bullet performance!
 
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