Let’s talk reloading

[cajun]

Miles Neville, Hornady Engineer: Averages 1/2 to 3/4 moa groups at 100 yards with his custom PRS rifle, the most accurate rifle he and his buddies have ever shot. They can literally build anything they want in their custom shop.

Erik Cortina: (smirks) "That just isn't good enough." Unquote. Believe the Target, episode #117.

That pretty much sums it up. The Hornady guys are amatures, despite their fancy job titles. Job titles mysteriously don't win world championships or set records. Why is that?

For what Miles does(PRS) that is good enough. For what Erik does not so much(1000 yd F class).
I do believe the Hornady guys are mostly right. If a powder does not shoot well at multiple charge weights and seating depths it's not really well suited for that bullet cartridge combo. I started going this route during the powder primer shortage the last time around. Shoot a quick ladder to find max velocity. If 6-8 different charge weights shoots less than an inch chances are you can work with that. Case in point. 6.5 creed,H4350 140 gr eld,fed 210 put 8 rounds over 2.4 grains of powder in 1/2" on the target. Everybody knows thats the secret sauce in the creed and that ladder showed it. Loaded up a bunch at 41.5 and went shooting. That's what I'm looking for in a powder bullet combo. If a few thou in seating depth or a 1/2 grain of powder makes a big difference in accuracy. I'm picking another powder. I don't care how accurate it is because it's not going to be forgiving. Also, I used to waste a lot of components trying to wring out that last 1/4". Truthfully 3/4" is way good enough or heck even moa for what I do.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

A bunch of top tier PRS shooters compete largely with virgin brass that maybe had mouths chamfered/deburred and win big matches doing so. Their rifles shoot ragged holes but with enough rounds that a 1/2" group actually means something. Not this "I shoot some 0.3" 3 shot groups so I have a 0.302 MOA rifle" nonsense.

 

[Hydra6]

Serious question, not a jab… I take your statement to mean that you trim every time you champer every time and you clean primer pockets every time.
If your case length is supposed to be max of 1.920 and you trim to 1.910 per the book and if you fire the cartridge a few times and trim after, and it doesn't grow past 1.910 do you still trim? Most of my Ackley and 35° shouldered cartridges don't grow enough after a few firings/trimmings. I have some that are on the 15th firing and I still don't trim because they're not past the trim length.

Never trimmed my 6 Dasher brass after 10 firings and resizings (and still going). Alpha brass. I do anneal plus chamfer in/out every time. I do clean primer pockets only because my chamfer tool (RCBS station) has primer cleaner adjacent to chamfer tools.

 

[7mm man]

Serious question, not a jab… I take your statement to mean that you trim every time you champer every time and you clean primer pockets every time.
If your case length is supposed to be max of 1.920 and you trim to 1.910 per the book and if you fire the cartridge a few times and trim after, and it doesn't grow past 1.910 do you still trim? Most of my Ackley and 35° shouldered cartridges don't grow enough after a few firings/trimmings. I have some that are on the 15th firing and I still don't trim because they're not past the trim length.

Not every cartridge needs trimmed every time if they didn't grow enough. I set the trimmer up to bring it down to the trim to length and measure before I trim. If they are within 0.0001" I move them on to the next step, chamfer, then clean out of the primer pockets what didn't get cleaned out by the tumbler. So technically, no not all brass gets trimmed but most. Probably 90% of what I process. My MPA 6 CM PRS rifle has a tight enough chamber that I might not trim any, using good Lapua brass. Now if I am doing range pistol brass my process is much more loose. I tend to not give as much of a **** with that.

 

[7mm man]

I have no issue using virgin brass either, but I still go trough my trim, and chamfer process. Good brass normally does not need much trimming to be uniform. My trimming habit is just the engineer in me. Things have to be consistent otherwise my eyes start to twitch....

 

[marksman1941]

For what Miles does(PRS) that is good enough. For what Erik does not so much(1000 yd F class).
I do believe the Hornady guys are mostly right. If a powder does not shoot well at multiple charge weights and seating depths it's not really well suited for that bullet cartridge combo. I started going this route during the powder primer shortage the last time around. Shoot a quick ladder to find max velocity. If 6-8 different charge weights shoots less than an inch chances are you can work with that. Case in point. 6.5 creed,H4350 140 gr eld,fed 210 put 8 rounds over 2.4 grains of powder in 1/2" on the target. Everybody knows thats the secret sauce in the creed and that ladder showed it. Loaded up a bunch at 41.5 and went shooting. That's what I'm looking for in a powder bullet combo. If a few thou in seating depth or a 1/2 grain of powder makes a big difference in accuracy. I'm picking another powder. I don't care how accurate it is because it's not going to be forgiving. Also, I used to waste a lot of components trying to wring out that last 1/4". Truthfully 3/4" is way good enough or heck even moa for what I do.

This is a much better way of saying it. I didn't do a good job explaining it, but you nailed it.

 

[Huntnful]

Yeah I don't do all the razzle dazzle anymore either. Once you know your charge weights for a given cartridge, load a little under pressure and .010 off or .010 jam.

I'm positive at this point that the MAJORITY of the accuracy comes from consistent brass prep. Not micro adjustments to the load.

I have shot quite a few 5 shot sub 1/2 MOA groups at 600 yards with zero load development. Just good rifles and good reloading practices.

It would take a significant amount of shooting to prove that you actually made a legitimate improvement on a 5 shot 1/2 MOA 600 yard group by tweaking a load.

I like to reference F class reloading also. But they are taking everything to the Nth degree for very very minor improvements over just their baseline load with no development. And they have a 30lb platform to repeat it and prove it consistently. And then they are using tuners on top of that still. Your 8lb magnum that you changed a seating depth and got it to shoot one .4" group all of the sudden, doesn't mean anything until you repeat it quite a few times.

I should clarify this actually. The MAJORITY of the accuracy is going to come from the build itself. The chosen components, overall weight, and more importantly, how it was built and the standards of the gunsmith.

THEN consistent brass prep gets you most of the way. I'm pretty sure I could load dog **** into the guns @Barehandlineman11 has built me and they would shoot sub MOA

 

[stiff neck]

For what Miles does(PRS) that is good enough. For what Erik does not so much(1000 yd F class).
I do believe the Hornady guys are mostly right. If a powder does not shoot well at multiple charge weights and seating depths it's not really well suited for that bullet cartridge combo. I started going this route during the powder primer shortage the last time around. Shoot a quick ladder to find max velocity. If 6-8 different charge weights shoots less than an inch chances are you can work with that. Case in point. 6.5 creed,H4350 140 gr eld,fed 210 put 8 rounds over 2.4 grains of powder in 1/2" on the target. Everybody knows thats the secret sauce in the creed and that ladder showed it. Loaded up a bunch at 41.5 and went shooting. That's what I'm looking for in a powder bullet combo. If a few thou in seating depth or a 1/2 grain of powder makes a big difference in accuracy. I'm picking another powder. I don't care how accurate it is because it's not going to be forgiving. Also, I used to waste a lot of components trying to wring out that last 1/4". Truthfully 3/4" is way good enough or heck even moa for what I do.

Nowhere in the podcast did the Hornady crew ever make any such disclaimers, that your needs might be different, this works for PRS, this doesn't apply to anyone who wants to shoot sub 1/2 moa, etc. Instead, they came out as THE AUTHORITY on reloading. Only much later on a different interview did one of them sheepishly admit their advice was geared towards beginners/hobiests.

Meanwhile, of course you need to do research and select a well known good powder for your cartridge. You can't force a powder to work if it doesn't want to. Common sense? Custom rifles with quality loads are usually pretty easy to find good loads for. By simply settling on a decent published load, and not even attempting to better it, puts you in the beginner reloader classification in my book. 3/4 or 1moa is good enough for you. Well, 4moa is good enough for most hunters and even the US military, that doesn't mean much.

 

[Grey Goast]

If you want to talk reloading for beginners even if it's a podcast it should be in a lab and reloading station to show step by step what you are talking about as not to overwhelm student. Just to talk about the subject without seeing it in their mind will cause them to lose focus and train of thought. If you watch a movie where a man builds a rifle to kill his target you can ask every person who watched the move how he built the rifle and 90 percent could give you very good details. just talking about a subject does not teach or is retained in the mind of man they will only remember bits and pieces

 

[cajun]

Nowhere in the podcast did the Hornady crew ever make any such disclaimers, that your needs might be different, this works for PRS, this doesn't apply to anyone who wants to shoot sub 1/2 moa, etc. Instead, they came out as THE AUTHORITY on reloading. Only much later on a different interview did one of them sheepishly admit their advice was geared towards beginners/hobiests.

Meanwhile, of course you need to do research and select a well known good powder for your cartridge. You can't force a powder to work if it doesn't want to. Common sense? Custom rifles with quality loads are usually pretty easy to find good loads for. By simply settling on a decent published load, and not even attempting to better it, puts you in the beginner reloader classification in my book. 3/4 or 1moa is good enough for you. Well, 4moa is good enough for most hunters and even the US military, that doesn't mean much.

I think thats pretty much common sense. I didnt take their podcast that way. You obviously did.

 

[RWE]

Wow... remind me not to discuss reloading with y'all....

 

[Mickp7]

I think the different perspectives are what the original post was intended to solicit. I think the concerns are reasonable as well, but feel that there was not enough information provided for someone to watch that podcast and hop on the reloading bench.

At the end of the day, reloading is not very difficult, but it does require a lot of education, attention to detail, organization, and systemization. Optimizing the loads is the fun part for me, as well as the shooting practice that goes along with it.

A close friend of mine (we often shoot together), has questioned the benefits of reloading vs simply buying factory ammo that your rifle likes. Because we are specifically working on loads for long range accuracy, my take is this:
- Unless you are shooting 1000's of rounds each year (competitions, etc), I don't believe many actually do it to save money
- You can tailor the round to your rifle, optimizing its potential
- You control the variables of the components, lots, etc
- You can achieve specific performance goals- velocity, accuracy, energy, etc
- You get a lot of shooting practice

Being relatively new to this hobby, I am likely guilty of the overcomplication and excessive shooting... but that's where the experience and education comes from. I think the variety of development approaches proves that there are multiple ways to achieve your goals, and those goals vary from shooter to shooter. So there is not one answer for all.

For newer guys like myself, the debates and perspectives inspire different ways to approach the load development, and provide another excuse to shoot and prove them out!

As soon as I can (which probably won't be for a few weeks), I'm going to test my 300PRC load (developed in an overcomplicated approach) against one that is developed as they suggested and have a little shoot off. Somewhere between 600 and 1000 yards (probably will depend on conditions), 20 rounds each.

 

[nealm66]

I guess I just don't see doing a powder/seating ladder to be that wasteful or difficult. I've been teaching a friend who at first was in the good enough state of mind but he now realizes it's not that difficult or wasteful to tune. If you're shooting something that doesn't benefit from tuning to a degree that improves your performance than so be it. If at some point you desire more and a powder/seating ladder doesn't seem to be improving things then maybe there's a learning opportunity or maybe you just assume that it's not possible. Simple as that

 

[cajun]

I think the other take away is lets say you have a 3/4 moa load. Spending time and money to get that to 1/2 moa is a waste of time if you can't shoot the difference. In other words if you are not capable of shooting 4" groups at 800 then having a load that will do that is a waste of time.