Let’s talk reloading

[CNY Yote Hunter]

Haven't read all the comments yet cause I'm working but I'll throw in my opinion quick. Powder charge is one of the last things I worry about for accuracy. I find a speed I like and is suggested for projectile performance. I've never been much for starting .020 off the lands, usually I will try the coal and then measure the cbto for a reference point and adjust from there. The reason I don't care for the coal measurement is because the most wide spread variation of machining I've seen is from the tip to the ogive on a projectile. Being consistency is key the most accurate measurement is where the projectile meets the lands. I have found seating depth is one of the most crucial keys to accuracy so I would completely disagree with that theory. The powder charge, I just watch my speed and ES. If it's burning well and the ES is within an exceptable range for me I send it. I am not an expert but have over 20 years into this venture myself and the time I've had to practice and play this is what I've found.

 

[Lenny Foffa]

Just like most of you I prefer a clean simple uncluttered bench. After 55 years of reloading, I have settled on two powders to use in my hunting rifles that to me are completely necessary and I could never be without. Two examples would be IMR 4350 and 4831SC. These two powders have been used in my 270 Win. rifles as well as 270 Weatherby mag 3006 and 300 Weatherby mag hunting loads. I am fully aware of newer better more interesting modern powders but the expectations I have set for my hunting rifles is that I expect any load from any of my rifles to shoot one MOA or better at 100 200 and 300 yards. If I can get three bullet holes to touch at 100 yards then to me that is adequate accuracy for Whitetail deer or other medium size game. I have developed loads to the point where 55.3 of H4831 SC grains is a very good load producing very good groups and 55.5 grains of 4831C produces the best one whole ragged group that rifle and I are capable of shooting and 55.9 grains very acceptable Hunting accuracy often with two holes touching and one perhaps an eighth of an inch of space off That gives me 3015 to 3025 fos with a 130 Grn Ballistic tip ! And is. Sub MOA ! When I determine a load is completely acceptable I stay with it and the only fiddling I may do is seating depth once the cases have been matched and prepped. They stay in their little blue boxes and do not get mixed up with other cases of different weights they are loaded exactly the way they were the previous year and over and over again. So for me, Hunting loads have a very simple bar to achieve and once achieved I stay exactly right there. This is not true for my benchrest loads, which require much more testing of different powders different bullets and much more fiddling with seating depths , as one would expect I believe the targets , and I see the results on the deer ! The goal For Me , then becomes to shoot and shoot and shoot to keep that level of precision !

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Rather than dive into another one of these discussions about sample size, whether seating or powder matters, ext. I will just post a link to a rifle I built. I happened to put up a bunch of the tuning targets, then theres some of the match targets to back it up. Pay attention to how much a tenth of powder and .002" of seating can make. And remember its a bench gun, the hunting rifles are far more extreme when you go out of tune. Dont look at the groups based on size, since this thing shot tiny. Base it on the fact that those small changes can double, tripple, or even more your best in tune groups. So if your rifles best is 4" at 1k, I dont want to double or tripple that. It matters and its a fact. I have built many hundreds of rifles, hunting, br, f class, it doesnt matter. They all act the same way. I should ad that everything I say is about well built custom rifles and quality components. If you have a rifle with built in accuracy problems (factory or custom) or loading components with built in fliers then you cant trust small samples.


https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/600-1000yd-lg-on-a-low-profile-deep-creek-tracker.4058335/

 

[Mike6158]

And remember its a bench gun, the hunting rifles are far more extreme when you go out of tune.

I think it matters.

I've seen that with my Sendero in 7mm Rem Mag. The load I have now has taken some time to find but it seems to be pretty stable. I spent a lot of time with H1000 and hunting bullets. Not wasted, it'll work for hunting. I was looking for best.

I finally settled on 180gr Berger VLD Hybrid bullets and N560. No pressure signs. The last two tests, with 100 yard groups (yes I know, 100 yard groups are just a start. It's a hunting rifle. Around here I might get a 200 yard shot. I have 300 yards to test at the range and I will do that one day soon). As it shoots now I think I'm ok to go hunting with it.

I forgot to mention that I've shot the load I selected at 200 yards, on a different day, and it opened up to 1/4". Next stop, 300 yards. Even if it goes out of tune it typically shot 3/4" groups at 200 without all the testing.

Shooting is my version of entertainment. I don't watch TV. I reload to get the best I can get out of my rifles. I have lots of calibers to play with and I stocked up on supplies numerous bad presidents ago so I've got what I need to entertain myself.

 

[pavementends]

I read through the entire thread. Lots of good info and strong opinions. One thing the rise of 22NRL and other longer range 22 competitions has shown us is the variability of different lots of the same brand of ammunition. When Varget was the preferred accuracy powder shooters were very aware of lot to lot differences. Many tests have been done on primer differences. Many complaints on a new lot of a preferred bullet having different base to ogive dimensions. One of the little repeated comments from several Hornady pod casts is the recommendation that when you find a combination that works for you, buy enough brass, powder, etc. to last the life of the barrel. With the rolling shortages in component supply chain this may or may not be possible. It is also more of an issue for competition shooters than hunters. Point of fact most of us find I new love before we come close to wearing out the barrel on a hunting rifle. (ground rats being the exception)
Remember, hobbies are supposed to be fun.

 

[Culpeper]

All other things considered, anybody can work a load up until they start to see pressure signs, back off .5 grains, seat for accuracy until they shoot a 5 shot 1/4 moa group and post it on the Internet. Doesn't mean it is a 1/4 moa rifle. More like 1/4 to 1 moa 95% of the time. And they can do this with entry level equipment. So yeah, a lot of people have changed the very definition of reloading to the point there is just too much noise out there in the data, if you even want to call it data. Most of it is BS and/or click bait. Now, I have to take my morning constitutional and at my age I can take a book with me about any topic other than reloading.

 

[Hugnot]

Keeping in mind, best scores for 1,000 yard BR run just under 4 inches & some individual match winners under 6 inches.

This is remarkable!

I have no desire to attempt this under field conditions with a rifle that is light enough to be carried all day. Expected round fired count per session may exceed 100 rounds per day and a load (handload) session might involve 250 rounds. I weigh every 15-20th charge thrown by powder measure, preferring short & thin grain extruded or ball powders & small cartridges. Bullets are seated deep enough to compensate for expected small variations of ogives. I trust the bullet makers to produce a good product but consider economics & availability. I carefully look at neck tension, neck wall thickness & brass chamber fit. Component uniformity is important. I observe others who make stuff work well.

Upon arriving at a good combo that produces good groups for several sessions, including some at 300 yards & with chrony data I run stats on the load. I determine mean differences for a 95% probability (bell shaped curve) for each 2.5% tail end of curve, like mean max & min. A process common to many applications other than shooting. This gives me some idea of what to expect with a certain batch of ammo. Component data like primer, powder, brass, & bullet are kept in records with other stuff like site & weather data.

Being familiar with IT stuff, acquired in a former life helps - love of numbers. I can access gigabytes of load data from a small machine sitting on my desk near my press & die shelf.

 

[R. Cram]

huntnful and a few others had very good comments which had to do with this site is supposed to be about long range hunting but seems to mostly be about shooting ity bity 3 shot groups off a bench at 100 yds. somebody commented shooting off a bench was good practice for shooting in the field and I couldnt dissagree more. If you want to become proficient shooting in the field unless you pack a bench there shooting off a bench won't do you any good at all. One of the best highpower shooters I shot with still used a 308 and shot the same load in each rifle and the same load every time he had a barrel put on. the load was one that probably would work in 95% of all rifles chambered in 308 like federal gold metal match, it always works. If your rifle will shoot 20 shots in 1 min at 1000 its a dandy and the real problem with shooting at 1000 is the wind, 50 times more of a problem than whether your rifle shot 1/4 min tighter groups or not. If you can shoot in a 20 shot match and never have a shot differ in elevation more than the x ring [ 1 min] then you have a great shooting rifle and have shot it well. If my rifles shoot 1/2 min for 5 shots at 200, the closest range I shoot a high power rifle, then I am happy and devote my barrel life and time to shooting as load testing past that degree of accuracy has no practical use to me and I load test using a sling and I doubt I can shoot any better than that nore can I shoot better than that while hunting Nore can I at a highpower match. some folks here love benchrest shooting, more power to them and to say that whatever competitors do for reloading is the gospel probably is not true, all people want to do the best they can so if the winner does something every one else feels they better copy that or maybe they will be missing out on a new secret. look at the calibers they shoot, if one guy wins with a 6.5 creedmoor the cartridge must be the reason he won but he probably would have won with any similar cartridges. the excellent shooter I referred to earlier said devote your time to shooting not reloading if you want to improve your shooting and I would add if you want to hunt get off the bench it's a waste of barrel and time

 

[aschler]

My way of thinking is if you can't shoot small under controlled conditions off the bench, which is where you learn basic shooting skills, then you don't have the skills to make long field shots. You need to learn trigger control, breathing, sight picture and wind until they become natural and 2nd nature to the shooter. Maybe, just maybe, that 3/4" gun is really a 1/2" or 3/8" gun in the hands of another shooter. How many times on here have you seen someone with a rifle accuracy problem, and someone recommends having someone else shoot the rifle?
Have you ever been to the range with a buddy, and one or the other consistently out shoots the other with the same rifle and ammo? To me, working up a more accurate load adds to trigger time, concentration and muscle memory, not to mention reloading skills. Once you have the rifle shooting to it's full potential, then I would say go practice under field conditions. That way the shooter knows for certain that a bad shot(s) is more than likely his skills and not the equipment and can concentrate on developing his skills and technique in the field.
Any sport costs money. It also requires time and dedication to become proficient at whatever you do. If you can afford a new set of golf clubs but can't afford any balls to hit or have the time to go hit them, you're in the wrong sport. If you can afford a new fishing rod, but not fishing line or a lure or bait, you're in the wrong sport. If you can afford a drag race car and not the fuel to race it, you're in the wrong sport. If you can afford a long-range rifle and not a scope or ammo to shoot it....guess what!
An inaccurate long-range rifle doesn't teach you anything except that you can't hit what you want consistently.
If you can't shoot it accurately off the bench, going to field conditions won't all of the sudden make it better. In actuality, it makes it much worse. Don't fool yourself into thinking it won't.

You said it yourself...."of course it would be better to get the rifle as accurate as possible."

If you have a good set of golf clubs, it would be better to practice with those than buy a new set that is marginally better and not be able to afford practice. I have a few very expensive fishing rods, they don't help me catch fish any better than my $200 rods.

You need to be decent shooting groups before you move into the field but I'd guess 99% of hunters (me included) can't shoot in field what would be expected based their range performance.

 

[R. Cram]

I took my grandsons to a 3x 600 match today which is 20 shots for record at 600 yds done 3 times. They shot bolt guns supported by slings, no sand bags or bipods or benches. I have had them shooting since they were about 8 or 9 years old and at that time they shot a very small single shot .22 at swinging targets and only two summers ago they started shooting centerfire rifles. I only get them for a month each summer so I would guess they have maybe shot 500 or so rounds out of a centerfire rifle. They have never shot any type of firearm off a bench as we are not interested in benchrest shooting. They went to their first 50 shot reduced course CMP match and shot 200 yds standing, sitting rapid fire,prone rapid fire and slow fire prone, once again no sand bags ,no bipods, no part of the rifle touching the ground and they happened to win the match with one of them shooting a 460 out of 500 and the other shooting a 455 out of 500. today one of them shot a 581 with 20 x's to take second place and the other didn't do very well because he shot too slowly and didn't get 11 of his shots off. The last 20 shot match for the one that did well he shot a 199 out of 200 so he shot one 9 and the rest 10's or x's, the group was generally 4 to 5 inches tall and 12 inches wide which represents wind effect for todays conditions. This was very good shooting and showed great increase in ability from the first two matches which shows how much can be learned if one tries to learn and that means trigger time. I go to the ranges often and I would say that if I see 150 shooters there maybe one of them might be shooting any position besides the bench. I have shot at a number of military ranges and have never seen a bench on any of them as they are training their men to shoot in field conditions where there is no benches. I don't wish to belittle any one but the truth is if anyone is serious about longrange shooting or hunting they should get off the bench and shoot targets at the long range to see what wind looks like and how it effects the bullets. The rifle that my grandson shot the 199 with today I have never load tested for,it is chambered in 260 rem and if you stick a 140 mk with 42 gr of whatever kind of 4350 you have it is extremely likely to shoot well. I just set this barrel back a month ago and stuck this load in it and went to a match and it shot well. I shoot a ruger precision rifle with some kind of resonable scope on it, Nikon monarch 4x16 or an old leupold varix3, I have never had a scope cost me more than 600 dollars and that has never hindered my shooting it always amazes me when every body talks about having to have a 3000 dollar scope untill 10 years ago Highpower did not allow optics som we shot iron sights from 200 to 1000 yds so any scope is kind of a treat and untill I was about 53 or so irons were no disadvantage , untill you try them earnestly and learn them people don't think they will work. have fun and keep shooting, I'm near boise let me know if you want to shoot some highpower and I will help anybody that wants to learn