Let’s talk reloading

[nealm66]

Except Pointman had to bring up the 25-06 and I got really squirreled

 

[Huntnful]

I have an AMP annealer. Henderson Trimmer. FX 120i scale. Primal Rights primer seater. SAC and bullet central dies. All SAC comparator gauges. Expensive calipers. Ect.

It's not like I'm take a piece of virgin brass and putting a bullet in it with a sludge hammer and saying "that's good enough" lol.

I'm just showing what's capable and achievable with good equipment, both rifle and reloading equipment, prior to any tuning. And then saying I've tried all kinds of tuning, and personally not seen anything significant enough to make me want to keep doing it really.

 

[FEENIX]

In the beginning of this video, I wasn't surprised at some of the opinions. I was surprised by their take on bullet seating and powder testing. For the most part, they are saying it's a waste of time and either the bullet/ powder works or it doesn't.

There's more to it in the podcast, but I think that's the nutshell of their approach.

Curious if others have taken this approach of simplicity to their loading and, if so, how many shots do you use to prove a load.

@Alex Wheeler shared this, https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/keeping-it-simple-with-reloading.291717/

 

[Hondo64d]

Here's a 5 shot .1 from a 6.5 PRC.

This is the first charge weight, seating depth, and first time even testing the bullet in this rifle. Maybe I just nailed the .003 seating window and the ultra fine tuned powder charge on the first shot lol.

View attachment 585626

Obviously I'm just being sarcastic. But it's hard to deny the countless pretty decent, if not excellent groups that have been produced with over 10 rifles and zero load development with several bullets and calibers and cartridges.

Would love to see the 20 shot composite of that same load.

John

 

[Huntnful]

Would love to see the 20 shot composite of that same load.

John

Agreed! It shot a TON of small 3-5 shot groups. But I never did do a 20 shot group with it. It was when I thought I was going to shoot some PRS stuff, but ended up realizing I really just like to kill stuff. So I sold it as a complete kit with 200 loaded rounds to a buddy, because I didn't like the chassis platform and it was pretty heavy.

 

[Hondo64d]

I think that the main point the Hornady guys are making in this episode and others is that if you aren't shooting a large enough sample size with each change in your load, you are largely wasting your time, effort and components, AND, if you do shoot a statistically relevant sample size, the changes you make to your load are not having nearly as big an effect on group size as what you might expect.

I educated myself on sample size years ago after wondering why my rifles might give me consistently small three shot groups but those groups would all have a slightly different POI, or the groups would not be that great, having put two in the same hole and one out. When I overlaid those groups I saw that what my load actually did was have a nice round composite group of a hair over MOA.

I would love to see what would happen to everyone's pet load if they actually posted a 20 round composite group of said load. You don't have to burn out your barrel's throat doing it. Just shoot three or five at a time, letting the barrel cool between each subset, putting subsequent subsets at the same POA. I've done it and it's an eye opener for sure.

John

 

[Ckleeves]

What I really want to see is a rifle that shoots in the .2's consistently produce more hits than a rifle that shoots .8 in actual FIELD positions. That .6 difference isn't why we miss.

If there was a genie that granted shooting wishes and I had the choice between a rifle that shot 1 moa and every shot I took for the rest of my life was in zero wind whatsoever OR a magic rifle that shot .1 all the time but wind stayed like it is now I'm taking the 1 moa rifle and no wind!

 

[Huntnful]

I think that the main point the Hornady guys are making in this episode and others is that if you aren't shooting a large enough sample size with each change in your load, you are largely wasting your time, effort and components, AND, if you do shoot a statistically relevant sample size, the changes you make to your load are not having nearly as big an effect on group size as what you might expect.

I educated myself on sample size years ago after wondering why my rifles might give me consistently small three shot groups but those groups would all have a slightly different POI, or the groups would not be that great, having put two in the same hole and one out. When I overlaid those groups I saw that what my load actually did was have a nice round composite group of a hair over MOA.

I would love to see what would happen to everyone's pet load if they actually posted a 20 round composite group of said load. You don't have to burn out your barrel's throat doing it. Just shoot three or five at a time, letting the barrel cool between each subset, putting subsequent subsets at the same POA. I've done it and it's an eye opener for sure.

John

Hardly anyone is actually willing to do this. Everything will get blamed on this condition or that didn't feel right when I pulled the trigger, and well I had to break and rebuild my position 10 times, "you only need three shots to kill an animal" ect. When in reality that's just how you, and the rifle shoot, on average. Over a decent course of fire. You're a system. You can say your rifle is 1/4 MOA, but if every time you get behind it, that 1/4 MOA three shot group lands in a different area of the bullseye, in similar conditions. Then your rifle AND YOU together are 3/4" MOA. Which is actually exceptional for a 20 shot group.

Here is a 30 shot group with a 300 NMI. Shot over the course of 2 hours. Ten 3 shot groups with plenty of cooling between groups. So I broke and rebuilt my position 10 times. Me, and this rifle, shoot 3/4 MOA, repeatedly. But the gun has shot plenty of .4 MOA 5 shot groups as well.

Repeatedly shooting 3 and 5 shot groups with the same exact load for 30 rounds will definitely give you a perspective on the dispersion of those small sample sizes.

 

[Huntnful]

@Alex Wheeler shared this, https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/keeping-it-simple-with-reloading.291717/

I've watched the video and went through that thread before. Such great info! Was nice to back through it and freshen up! Those dudes certainly know how to shoot and tune a rifle to it's absolute maximum performance

 

[cajun]

I recently was working on loads for a 7mag remage we spun together for my son. Once we found a load we shot ten 3 shot groups. Some of those groups were literally .2. Some were .9. The average of all groups was .6. Was it the shooter. A little wind or just normal load variation. Not sure but we will take that.

 

[Mike6158]

I recently was working on loads for a 7mag remage we spun together for my son. Once we found a load we shot ten 3 shot groups. Some of those groups were literally .2. Some were .9. The average of all groups was .6. Was it the shooter. A little wind or just normal load variation. Not sure but we will take that.

Nice! I've been working on a 7mm Rem Mag and I finally got it to shoot hole in a hole at 100. 3 shot groups. Then moved to 200 and got 1/4" groups. Then I shot it again a day later and got the same thing. It like N560 and 180 Berger VLD Hybrids. I couldn't get SST's or Barnes TTSX to shoot like that.

What I really, really like about the load is the consistency of the first round, cold bore shot. I don't need to shoot 10 shots to see how the load performs when it does the same thing with the first shot every time. It's a hunting rifle. A plain ole Remington Sendero. What I really, really don't like about the load is the fact that if I miss, with that load, at whatever range I shoot at... it's on me.

"A little wind or just normal load variation". I've decided that normal variation is pretty much the norm for the kind of rifles I shoot. A puff of wind affects the shot, the G1/G7 changes with air density and that's never constant, powder isn't perfectly consistent, and neither is the explosion that launches the bullet. As the barrel heats that changes things. Mirage adds "character" to every situation

 

[Hard H2O]

What I really want to see is a rifle that shoots in the .2's consistently produce more hits than a rifle that shoots .8 in actual FIELD positions. That .6 difference isn't why we miss.

If there was a genie that granted shooting wishes and I had the choice between a rifle that shot 1 moa and every shot I took for the rest of my life was in zero wind whatsoever OR a magic rifle that shot .1 all the time but wind stayed like it is now I'm taking the 1 moa rifle and no wind!

I shoot NRL22. I shoot it poorly. I was using Eley Tenex at about $32 per 50. I have recently switched to Eley Match at about $17 per 50. I could not shoot well enough to really tell the difference. I can not shoot better than my Tikka T1X can. We are shooting steel not bullseye targets. My own ability combined with shooting over barriers, environmental factors... That is why I miss a .25" piece of steel at 35 yards. It is not the minute difference between the Tenex and the match.

 

[Rflshootr]

I think the other take away is lets say you have a 3/4 moa load. Spending time and money to get that to 1/2 moa is a waste of time if you can't shoot the difference. In other words if you are not capable of shooting 4" groups at 800 then having a load that will do that is a waste of time.

I disagree with line of thinking. If you don't have equipment that is capable of shooting a 4" group at 800 yards, then you will never be able to accomplish that goal. If 3/4" gun is only capable of a 6" group at 800, you'll never learn the skills to shoot smaller than that. Accuracy trumps Everything!

 

[ncwg2boatguy]

I agree 100%. I wonder how many top placing benchrest shooters pick a bullet then pick a powder load 10 up if it shoots .75 caller good. There's a reason they do meticulous brass prep and load testing.

Miles mentioned that some things are going to give you a slightly better result equaling a tenth of an inch in the group so the time invested isn't worth it.Well that's the difference of a win or loss in benchrest or f class. In hunting applications or even prs that will probably work fine because theres other factors at play that will cause you to miss other than your .75" gun.

Agree with your reply but want to add most guy I know and shoot PRS with run sub.5 moa loads. They are really OCD about load development also.