Let’s talk reloading

[Mike6158]

I've been working on a 7mm Rem Mag off and on. In that rifle, eating depth affects ES. ES affects group size. I put 3 in the same hole at a 100 yards and repeated it two more times. I think I like that load. I also shot it at 200 yards. Since I know I am (not) the perfect shooter I wasn't shocked when it shot sub 1/4 MOA. The real problem with finding a load that works that well is... if I miss... it's going to be real hard to blame the rifle: Accuracy comes with risk lol

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I've been that guy doing endless ocw, ladder, and seating depth tests to where that was 90% of the rounds I sent down range. Seems to lots of people, that endless tinkering IS their hobby. It was mine. The idea of what hornady is saying (and Litz seems to generally agree) is that most people would be much better off to find good enough and spend their time doing things that actually leads to being better at hitting where they want. If a guy is only going to punch paper from a bench or perfectly prepared prone position, by all means, burn out barrels chasing your tail in load dev. For actually hitting things in field positions your time is better spent getting better at shooting.

Miles has a number of quality finishes at national level matches. What have the folks calling him an amateur accomplished in comparison?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Puzzling that a Hornady project engineer haphazzardly takes a stab in the dark at load development and calls it good enough, instead of working it over for top accuracy. For brand name bragging rights if nothing else. Is it ignorance? Dunning-Kruger? Click bait? Good advice for a begginner reloader? Waste of my frigging time if they are sincere in their declarations.

For brand name bragging rights? I think they are doing a service to the community that's been fed a bunch of dogma that's not supported by data and are saving people a bunch of wasted time, money, and effort. It's actually pretty amazing that the hobbyist level folks got hoodwinked into thinking they are being told something by 1-3 shot groups.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The Berger engineers and guys like Mark Gordon from Short Action Customs talk about seating depth tests from .010 to .150 or more. Then these guys from Hornady say set it +/- .030 and forget it.
I'll happily try it out, but am definitely curious what others have found.

Have you read the Mark Gordon studies? He shoots a single bullet at a given seating depth through each rifle. The graph of such data jumps up and down from 0.005" changes. So if you believe a single bullet tells you something useful and isn't just a measure of typical dispersion, then you have to believe 0.005 makes a big difference.. Meanwhile throats erode faster than that in 100 shots in many cases.. So are you guys changing your seating depth a though every 20 rounds? The main takeaway for me is things got more consistent in most cases once you got over 0.050" off the lands. So that's why i basically just set the bullet there and leave it there most of the time until it starts shooting crappy.

Dudes are pretending their 3 shot group that is 0.2" smaller than a different 3 shot group is statistically significant and chasing their tails meanwhile they are 4 MOA shooters when put in field situations with a little time stress. Seems one area should get more focus and it aint chasing their tail for a 3 shot group that is 0.1" tighter..

 

[7mm man]

I didn't understand that brass prep mattered more than everything else. I loaded up some 223 that was well within safe margins, but I hadn't trimmed the brass. Ended up with a couple pierced primers which was a head scratcher until I realized that everything was over length. I have since refined my process to spend more time on brass prep than anything else.

I trim, chamfer, clean primer pockets every time, very important for me.

 

[RWE]

Easy now fellas…

Did all you folks bashing the podcast started out with $10,000 rifle rigs and were benchrest and /F-class masters who could reload and shoot sub 1/4 MOA? I bet Cortina (et al) didn't start like that, but I will also bet he got there fast as that was his goal.

Maybe they are gearing the podcast towards those starting out? Don't worry, the newbies will catch up as money, time, drive, whatever it is allows I am sure. Some people just want to reload for the fun of it or for hunting loads. Relax.

 

[Mickp7]

Puzzling that a Hornady project engineer haphazzardly takes a stab in the dark at load development and calls it good enough, instead of working it over for top accuracy. For brand name bragging rights if nothing else. Is it ignorance? Dunning-Kruger? Click bait? Good advice for a begginner reloader? Waste of my frigging time if they are sincere in their declarations.

Their contention is that if you shoot more rounds in your group testing (they mentioned their "Your groups are too small" episode several times), you'll likely see similar dispersion shown in other testing groups or lack of repeatability in your best groups. I am not supporting their claim in any way, but I have noticed that most posted target groups are individual (single) groups, usually 3 shots. (I personally have not posted any of my bad groups yet ). They mentioned their verification groups were 10- 20 shots.
Given their load development basis was PRS competitions, I suspect that they know what level of accuracy they need to perform and don't see the need for the incremental improvements that requires a lot more time and components to achieve.
Again, this is just my take on what they said, but I am surprised to see how many responses seem to agree with them.

 

[1stpitch]

I've been that guy doing endless ocw, ladder, and seating depth tests to where that was 90% of the rounds I sent down range. Seems to lots of people, that endless tinkering IS their hobby. It was mine. The idea of what hornady is saying (and Litz seems to generally agree) is that most people would be much better off to find good enough and spend their time doing things that actually leads to being better at hitting where they want. If a guy is only going to punch paper from a bench or perfectly prepared prone position, by all means, burn out barrels chasing your tail in load dev. For actually hitting things in field positions your time is better spent getting better at shooting.

Voltaire said the perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[7mm man]

Have you read the Mark Gordon studies? He shoots a single bullet at a given seating depth through each rifle. The graph of such data jumps up and down from 0.005" changes. So if you believe a single bullet tells you something useful and isn't just a measure of typical dispersion, then you have to believe 0.005 makes a big difference.. Meanwhile throats erode faster than that in 100 shots in many cases.. So are you guys changing your seating depth a though every 20 rounds? The main takeaway for me is things got more consistent in most cases once you got over 0.050" off the lands. So that's why i basically just set the bullet there and leave it there most of the time until it starts shooting crappy.

Dudes are pretending their 3 shot group that is 0.2" smaller than a different 3 shot group is statistically significant and chasing their tails meanwhile they are 4 MOA shooters when put in field situations with a little time stress. Seems one area should get more focus and it aint chasing their tail for a 3 shot group that is 0.1" tighter..

I would even go as far to say that a lot of guys can't even shoot well enough to know whether it is them or the load when trying to measure 0.2" in three shot groups. I used to drive myself crazy with that stuff, no more. Besides in most situations, 1 MOA is good enough for me with the distance I am going to shoot to anyway.

 

[Mickp7]

I trim, chamfer, clean primer pockets every time, very important for me.

I do all this as well, including annealing, every time. My time in the reloading room is my decompression time, so I don't mind putting in the effort for the extra details.
I've always trimmed to the stated trim length, even if it was +/- .001 long. That said, I skipped trimming on my last 50 rounds of prep on some 7 PRC rounds based on another discussion about the need to trim every time just to test. Brass OAL was .002 to .003 longer than stated trim length (well under max length). Loaded up 6 rounds and shot an outstanding group.
Not sure if I'll change my process yet or not, but I might wait until .004 or .005 to trim moving forward if they keep shooting great.

 

[Hydra6]

Is this a F Class forum or a Long Range Hunting Forum? How big is the vital zone of a critter?

I shoot thousands of rounds of PRS ammo I load per year - I quit doing the black magic reloading stuff too. Simple is good enough.

I believe in quality components - projectile, case, powder, primer through a quality barrel (quality = not necessarily the best or most expensive)

 

[buckbrush]

Is this a F Class forum or a Long Range Hunting Forum? How big is the vital zone of a critter?

I shoot thousands of rounds of PRS ammo I load per year - I quit doing the black magic reloading stuff too. Simple is good enough.

I believe in quality components - projectile, case, powder, primer through a quality barrel (quality = not necessarily the best or most expensive)

I agree. I used to spend hours building "perfect" ammo but couldn't read the wind to save my ***. Time better spent practicing your shooting, fundamentals, wind reading and creating solid field positions.

 

[Justice1327]

I trim, chamfer, clean primer pockets every time, very important for me.

Serious question, not a jab… I take your statement to mean that you trim every time you champer every time and you clean primer pockets every time.
If your case length is supposed to be max of 1.920 and you trim to 1.910 per the book and if you fire the cartridge a few times and trim after, and it doesn't grow past 1.910 do you still trim? Most of my Ackley and 35° shouldered cartridges don't grow enough after a few firings/trimmings. I have some that are on the 15th firing and I still don't trim because they're not past the trim length.

 

[Nimrodmar10]

Serious question, not a jab… I take your statement to mean that you trim every time you champer every time and you clean primer pockets every time.
If your case length is supposed to be max of 1.920 and you trim to 1.910 per the book and if you fire the cartridge a few times and trim after, and it doesn't grow past 1.910 do you still trim? Most of my Ackley and 35° shouldered cartridges don't grow enough after a few firings/trimmings. I have some that are on the 15th firing and I still don't trim because they're not past the trim length.

I also trim, inside/outside ream, clean primer pockets and anneal every loading. I trim to trim length, but it's not because they grow to maximum case length after one firing. As a matter of fact, they don't grow at all when you fire them. They grow when you resize them. It's about making sure they are all the same length, to ensure consistent neck tension from round to round. They don't all stretch the same amount.
I am a firm believer that uniform neck tension is one of the most important aspects of accuracy.