Do larger calibers really compensate for bad shots?

Some of you guys keep throwing recoil in there, has nothing to do with what was asked. If the question was "Can YOU shoot a heavy recoiling rifle well?" or "Why don't you shoot a bigger caliber/cartridge?", then I believe it would bear fruit on this thread. I think that if you believe that heavy recoiling rifles naturally cause bad shots, then you have about the same level of ignorance as those that shoot that big gun poorly and don't admit it & do something about it. "But muzzle brakes hurt my ears!"... well no "crap" Sherlock! So does the report of a rifle without one!
"Now 6/6.5/7mm bullets have really high BC bullets. That will make them have a higher probability of a hit and make me more accurate." Sorry but that still doesn't come close to the larger cals, when they can hit the .9 and 1.05+ range then we'll talk. The last time I took my larger cal rifle to the range I was shooting it along side a .300 WinMag and at 1200 yards the wind adjustment was literally half and the drop 1/3 less! Punch in the numbers on a recoil calculator and the bigger cal has almost 4 times as much ft lbs recoil, and the rifles weight the same. Which one has the highest percentage hit rate? If you said the .300 because it doesn't kick as hard, then that is incorrect. That is purely shooter error!
All things equal a larger cal bullet has the potential to cause more damage via a larger-possibly deeper wound channel. Am I saying a larger caliber is always gonna be better? Nope, there are other factors like bullet selection that play a part too. However that is not what was asked.

Ok rant over, that was not directed at anyone in particular. I've been on the range in the 110 index heat for the past several weeks and it's messing with my sanity!
 
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I have one antidotal story to contribute to this discussion regarding distance, bullet weight and caliber and knowledge and opportunity. In the late 1980's (pre-godforsaken wolves) elk were very plentiful in North Idaho but shot opportunities were not. If you've never been there just allow me to say that it's not like hunting elk anywhere else in the west that I know of except western Washington. It's steep, pretty rugged and thick. Not just thick timber but thick timber choked with alders and vine maples and various other types of brush that congest even the few openings that you'll usually find in dark forests. Dad would hunt on weekends and it was a big challenge to get a shot at an elk when visibility is usually limited to 40 yards or less. Occasionally, you would find a hole in the trees, usually the result of root rot felling a small patch of trees or there being a small rock outcropping. Even more seldom that the holes in the forest were those holes matching up with holes in the forest across the canyon, where you might see elk at a distance. This was the days before rangefinders so these holes might provide a 400 yard shot, it might actually be 600 or 900 or 1,500; nobody really knew and stepping it off for future reference could probably be better performed by scaling the distance off of a map.

Anyway, Dad's weekend elk hunting usually resulted in him getting an elk at some point during the season but not always. Sometimes all he might see during the entire season was the back half of an elk sticking out of some brush or from behind a tree at 30 or 40 yards and if it were either sex season (where he didn't have to confirm antlers) he wanted to take advantage of these opportunities.

My uncle (a hobbyist gunsmith) suggested a 35 Whalen AI. Dad agreed and my uncle built him one on an old Enfield action with an old school H-S Precision fiberglass stock. They then topped it with a VariX III 1.5-5 scope. They found that it would group 250 gr Speer spitzers into less than 1/2 inch at 100 yards at a speed of around 2,550 fps.

That rifle started bringing home elk on a more consistent basis than had the the previous 30-06's pushing 180 core loks.

With that much bullet, Dad became confident in smashing elk pelvis's (which he referred to as gearing them down). Because he was so close to the elk when he shot, he would work the action and charge! Usually within 5 or 10 seconds, he was on top of them and would finish them off. This technique worked great for him for many years with great success.

One day he was side hilling through the timber (as always) when he spotted something that looked like an elk butt under some trees in dark shade. He looked through his scope and it still looked like a broadside elk butt that didn't move. He sat down and put his rifle over his knees and watched it for what seemed like minutes (this is at less than 40 yards). He waited. Finally, he saw the elk lift a hind leg and then replant it. It was an elk and because it was either sex season he set the crosshairs about 6 inches below the top of the back and just forward of the center of the ham and fired (he would say, "let drive") and was rewarded with seeing a nice elk rack rock back over the elk's back as it dove forward and down out of sight. Within seconds, Dad has his feet and bounded down the hill to deliver another shot (refers to this quick charge at short range as a "pounce"). The bull had hit the ground at the shot but regained its front feet. It only traveled a couple of yards before dad put a finisher into its neck. Nice 5x6 for North Idaho.

After he gutted it, halved it and got it most of the way off the ground he headed back to camp. At the road, he caught a ride with a couple of teens and told them he'd taken a decent 5x6. They said that they had seen a similar bull further down the canyon way up in an opening. They had shot at it, and because one of them had a notoriously flat shooting 250-3000, thought that they had hit it but couldn't find any blood.

They next day while skinning the rear quarters, Dad found an extra bullet hole and dug out a little 25ish caliber (never measured) cup and core bullet. That young man, it seems, had indeed hit the bull but failed to bring it down with a shot to the rear with a 250-3000 and later in the day the bull fell to a 250 gr 35 caliber bullet to the rear delivered at less than 40 yards.

What I see in the previous example is the creation of shot opportunities using a larger caliber rifle at limited ranges. Ranges where all that was necessary was to 'gear them down' so that you could get to them and finish them off before they could escape. It was a proven technique with a proven track record. No doubt the young man who shot at the elk at distance thought he was carrying an elk rifle (if the term 'elk rifle' had even ever occurred to him) but my own experience says that a 250-3000 is a pretty marginal elk caliber with cup and core bullets. I'm sure that the poster who has killed elk at 1,000 yards with a 22-250 would view it as a howitzer but I think it needs premium bullets to make it an elk rifle.

Would a 300 Winchester have proven as good at breaking pelvises with cup and core bullets? Maybe, with heavyweights but it's also possible that the increased impact velocities could have resulted in catastrophic bullet failure and a lack of penetration.

Several have suggested that bigger guns can increase the number of shot opportunities available and I agree, to an extent, however, some of the newer mono-metal and super tough bullets (Partitions and A-frames are the first that come to mind) will allow you to do things like shatter an elk pelvis with smaller calibers than cup and core bullets in the past.

No, a larger caliber doesn't make up for terrible placement but it can provide additional bone breaking and penetration potential beyond what some smaller cartridges can do in some instances and when applied appropriately.

Cross
 
When your bullets are measured in thousandths of an inch, they might kill a bit slower than a bullet measured in megatons. I'll let the philosophers debate the merits of each.
 
In my years of hunting and guiding I have see many people place horrific shots on game. I even scolded hunters for "vitals" shots because I hated tracking an Elk for 1.5 miles when they were just a few inches off hitting the heart. My edict was a high neck/spine shot or you do not shoot. I got one 7MM Rem Mag shooter a 50 foot shot.. he missed the neck and hit, magnificently bad shot on the shoulder. he said he tried for the shoulder, he hit the chest, skin and soft tissue shot. the Elk ran 429 yards across the forest and up the mountainside. it was not even bleeding much. there is no replacement for a good/well placed shot. I have horror story from 5 years of being a pro guide. the scariest time of my life out in the field.
 
In my years of hunting and guiding I have see many people place horrific shots on game. I even scolded hunters for "vitals" shots because I hated tracking an Elk for 1.5 miles when they were just a few inches off hitting the heart. My edict was a high neck/spine shot or you do not shoot. I got one 7MM Rem Mag shooter a 50 foot shot.. he missed the neck and hit, magnificently bad shot on the shoulder. he said he tried for the shoulder, he hit the chest, skin and soft tissue shot. the Elk ran 429 yards across the forest and up the mountainside. it was not even bleeding much. there is no replacement for a good/well placed shot. I have horror story from 5 years of being a pro guide. the scariest time of my life out in the field.
Seems like what is your 'edict' provides a very small target and a bigger chance of wounding an animal. Sure it will kill if you hit the spine, but a lung and/or heart shot is a much bigger target area and I have never had or seen one lost when hit in the vitals...just my opinion based on my experience.
 
If we launch a #7.5 piece of birdshot at 2000 fps and hit a (insert game creature of choice here), will it be killed? Or will that same subject creature be killed by launching a 16 pound bowling ball at 2000 fps and hitting the target in the same spot. The BC and FPS are the same but terminal the energies are clearly not. Comparing a .22lr to a similarly constructed .458 caliber projectile at any velocity you like, is also ridiculously different as well, but the numbers are much closer together. So the answer to the original question is yes bigger is more deadly, or at least more harmful IF mass is the only thing in question. But remember when silhouette shooting was a very popular shooting game? The 25-06 was often not allowed in this match because it will go completely through the steel targets causing unacceptable damage. However the 45-70 was allowed and it knocked over any of the 4 steel animals with authority. Of course it was not use much because of it's round trajectory but there were occasionally special classes for that round and other 19th century black powder rounds. So if velocity and mass are removed from the question we are back to bullet design. If Pandora really has a box, the question of what bullet is the best for X,Y or Z would be one of her favorite subjects. I figure that I need a bullet that will be very likely to give me good results if I have to take a Texas Heart Shot, like described in post #10. I also think the same bullet will work well for the perfect broadside, no wind, standing still target that we would like. However, this all makes good campfire discussions. But then my perspective is pretty much worthless, or so my wife reminds me of fairly often.
 
In my years of hunting and guiding I have see many people place horrific shots on game. I even scolded hunters for "vitals" shots because I hated tracking an Elk for 1.5 miles when they were just a few inches off hitting the heart. My edict was a high neck/spine shot or you do not shoot. I got one 7MM Rem Mag shooter a 50 foot shot.. he missed the neck and hit, magnificently bad shot on the shoulder. he said he tried for the shoulder, he hit the chest, skin and soft tissue shot. the Elk ran 429 yards across the forest and up the mountainside. it was not even bleeding much. there is no replacement for a good/well placed shot. I have horror story from 5 years of being a pro guide. the scariest time of my life out in the field.
Ha ha ha, I'm sorry brother but if you told me I had to shoot high neck I'd probably give you the thumbs up and then smash them in the "vitals". I've heard the expression never guide your guide, but I might flip the script and tell you not to guide a shooter. I'm with Rick on this one.
 
When I was in my land canon canon phase I had a 45-70 in a Mauser bolt action that I could push hard, it actually knocked out a friend of mine who braced up to shoot it vs rolling with it, it was a wrecking ball on elk! It was equally horrible to kill deer with, I blew a hole through a white tail doe one evening with it, three rounds in the chest and she just walked away, I ran back to the truck grabbed a 22 lr and cut her of walking up the creek and dropped her with one round. The bullet were just to big and slow to do anything but slam a 45 cal hole through her, another deer I hit front on bullet hit her in the center of the chest, exited her flank and ripped the hide of the out side of one ham and she took of running, my jaw was on the ground cause I was used to levitating elk with it, I couldn't hit her again and grabbed my buddies 270 and hit her in the back of the neck, again a 45 cal hole straight through. Both these deer I would have been way better of with a 223 and bullets that opened. I think if you have a big cal balanced right with bullet type and speed you can see a big difference but a slow to open bullet leaving a cal hole is not a gain.
 
When I was in my land canon canon phase I had a 45-70 in a Mauser bolt action that I could push hard, it actually knocked out a friend of mine who braced up to shoot it vs rolling with it, it was a wrecking ball on elk! It was equally horrible to kill deer with, I blew a hole through a white tail doe one evening with it, three rounds in the chest and she just walked away, I ran back to the truck grabbed a 22 lr and cut her of walking up the creek and dropped her with one round. The bullet were just to big and slow to do anything but slam a 45 cal hole through her, another deer I hit front on bullet hit her in the center of the chest, exited her flank and ripped the hide of the out side of one ham and she took of running, my jaw was on the ground cause I was used to levitating elk with it, I couldn't hit her again and grabbed my buddies 270 and hit her in the back of the neck, again a 45 cal hole straight through. Both these deer I would have been way better of with a 223 and bullets that opened. I think if you have a big cal balanced right with bullet type and speed you can see a big difference but a slow to open bullet leaving a cal hole is not a gain.
One of the most devastating rounds I seen on deer was a .444 Marlin a buddy's dad used a couple years when I was younger. It destroyed them! This was with factory ammo with bullets that were really designed for .44 mag velocities. The exact opposite of your posted .45-70 experience. No way I'd shoot an elk with that ammo. Right gun, wrong bullet.
 
That as 405 flat soft points and 350 gr soft round points, in the end I shot 300 gr hollow soft points going as fast as a bolt action would handle it, never did shoot a deer with them but on elk all you'd see where legs kicking when you recovered from the recoil, bullet would open up to about a silver dollar size. The guy I bought it from said it was the worst deer gun he ever shot but I had to try it myself, he was right but it would shut an elk down like a light switch, I've shot most cals from that down and I've never seen elk rolled as violently as with that gun.
 
I have seen this mentioned in several threads lately. My experience has been a gutshot animal with a 338 is just as bad as a gutshot animal with a 243. I am not convinced bigger calibers allow for a materially greater margin of error, especially if you are shooting a berger type bullet or one that expands well. What are y'alls thoughts?

More powerful rifles leave a larger margin of error — but yes, a shot that totally misses vital organs will almost always mean a slow death. With elk, where a shoulder shot could mean 6+ inches of muscle and a shoulder bone before entering the chest cavity, larger is definitely better. I've seen a large bull elk absorb a shot from a 7mm Rem to the shoulder without blinking. The bullet never made it to the chest cavity (thankfully another bullet took out the lungs).

As I've aged & learned what each rifle is capable of I've gone to smaller cartridges in many situations where I knew I wouldn't need the extra power, like hunting whitetails from a tree stand where I most often put a bullet at the base of the animal's skull. At the same time, I've gone the opposite direction when hunting elk where it might be a quick shot at a less-than-optimal angle through the brush. There I won't carry anything less than a .300 Weatherby & like my .338/.378 Weatherby. I also have a Sako stainless/synthetic in .375 H&H as a backup rifle.
 
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An animal that is hit with a large amount of energy in a bad location will likely be hurting very badly an unable to make a speedy escape, vs the same animal hit poorly with a small caliber with half the energy. Case and point, I grew up watching my dad shoot black tail deer in the guts with a 338 win mag on purpose. The shock killed them, jelled the blood in the chest cavity. Same hit with a 30-06 and the deer ran off. I have hit cow elk in the guts with a 338 rum on a bad wind call and the cow broke off from the herd, and was so sick, that I walked up and took a finishing shot. I watched my brother hit a cow elk in the ham with a 7mm mag and a 160 gr partition at around 300 yards, cow was last in line in the string as the elk headed out and I dropped her at 550 with double shoulder shot from my 338 rum. While cutting up the meat, the 160 gr 7mm bullet did pretty much no damage to the meat, no broken bones, no blood shot, the elk would have probably lived. Elk that I have has the mis fortune of hitting in the ham due to a bad wind call and a 300 gr berger otm, died within 50 yards. Big bullet, more energy, larger wound channel, equals a little extra insurance.
 
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