Bullet failures

[WildRose]

For what it's worth, here's an article citing much more up to date studies giving lots of credence to the effect of hydrostatic shock particularly relative to modern high velocity rifle rounds.

Studies done with much slower and lower energy rounds simply don't provide the same types of data.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I will let y'all decide.
My elk rifle is a 20 inch barreled 1/10.5 twist 300WSM and this season My load was 152gr Hammer Hunters running 3125fps with H4350.
ELK #1 Cow Broadside 345 yds hit behind shoulder saw dust fly as bullet passed thru. About dime sized in and out with nice blood spray at point where elk stood. No blood at all until elk fell about 35 yds away then lots of blood. Lungs had some damage not shredded though.
ELK#2 Nice Bull uphill 320 yds sharp quartering away but looking back at me. Getting late last day of hunt. Laying across rocks on bipod put crosshairs on shoulder shoot partner watching seeing trace calls good shot elk slowly walks away. No blood nothing found that night or next morning looking for hours.
Came back a week later found Bull about 900 yds away thanks to coyotes. I assume it was bad shot too far back but not enough left of elk to determine exactly.
The next two are why I am bothering to type this as they kinda freaked me out.
ELK#3 Slipping along Bull walks out broadside at 75/80 yds I drop to sitting position put the crosshairs on shoulder shoot loud smack elk drops struggles to get up then rolls over and quit moving. I sit for a few seconds then pull my glass to look down the mountain to see where my partner was and when I look back elk is going in timber and next time I see him he is going over high ridge at about 800 yds away.
Very slight blood trail for about 1000 or so yards never found elk.

Elk#4 See 5x6 elk coming for over a mile away public land in Colorado. I move into position so I can intercept before he gets my wind. I coyote howl to get him to stop at 40 yds but wouldn't you know it he turns towards me right behind a fence post so I can't shoot the neck shoulder junction so I lean as far as I can and shoot him behind the shoulder with him quartering to me. He drops in his tracks BUT as I stand up he jumps up and hauls it across the sage brush and I make a running shot that makes him skid on his nose which was quite the sight. But then he raises up and started trying to get his feet under him but he was broken down. I moved around until I could get a good angle into his lungs crossways up thru his body and shoot again.He rolls over and lays there breathing for what seemed like forever. I finally ease around to the other side so I could see his eyes and he raises up and looks at me.... what the heck. I walk right up to him and put one low right behind the shoulder and finally his dies.

Not really sure what to think honestly because of all the circumstances involved. Been debating over even putting this on the forum but I figured I would get some feedback...

That in the most honest way I can say sounds terrible. I don't know how to put it any other way. I would very much like to talk with you on the phone tomorrow.

 

[venatic]

I will give you a call.

 

[Canhunter35]

I will let y'all decide.
My elk rifle is a 20 inch barreled 1/10.5 twist 300WSM and this season My load was 152gr Hammer Hunters running 3125fps with H4350.
ELK #1 Cow Broadside 345 yds hit behind shoulder saw dust fly as bullet passed thru. About dime sized in and out with nice blood spray at point where elk stood. No blood at all until elk fell about 35 yds away then lots of blood. Lungs had some damage not shredded though.
ELK#2 Nice Bull uphill 320 yds sharp quartering away but looking back at me. Getting late last day of hunt. Laying across rocks on bipod put crosshairs on shoulder shoot partner watching seeing trace calls good shot elk slowly walks away. No blood nothing found that night or next morning looking for hours.
Came back a week later found Bull about 900 yds away thanks to coyotes. I assume it was bad shot too far back but not enough left of elk to determine exactly.
The next two are why I am bothering to type this as they kinda freaked me out.
ELK#3 Slipping along Bull walks out broadside at 75/80 yds I drop to sitting position put the crosshairs on shoulder shoot loud smack elk drops struggles to get up then rolls over and quit moving. I sit for a few seconds then pull my glass to look down the mountain to see where my partner was and when I look back elk is going in timber and next time I see him he is going over high ridge at about 800 yds away.
Very slight blood trail for about 1000 or so yards never found elk.

Elk#4 See 5x6 elk coming for over a mile away public land in Colorado. I move into position so I can intercept before he gets my wind. I coyote howl to get him to stop at 40 yds but wouldn't you know it he turns towards me right behind a fence post so I can't shoot the neck shoulder junction so I lean as far as I can and shoot him behind the shoulder with him quartering to me. He drops in his tracks BUT as I stand up he jumps up and hauls it across the sage brush and I make a running shot that makes him skid on his nose which was quite the sight. But then he raises up and started trying to get his feet under him but he was broken down. I moved around until I could get a good angle into his lungs crossways up thru his body and shoot again.He rolls over and lays there breathing for what seemed like forever. I finally ease around to the other side so I could see his eyes and he raises up and looks at me.... what the heck. I walk right up to him and put one low right behind the shoulder and finally his dies.

Not really sure what to think honestly because of all the circumstances involved. Been debating over even putting this on the forum but I figured I would get some feedback...

That really sounds frustrating, I'd really like to know what you come up with on why it happened, it doesn't sound like major shot placement issues to me

 

[FEENIX]

I will let y'all decide.
My elk rifle is a 20 inch barreled 1/10.5 twist 300WSM and this season My load was 152gr Hammer Hunters running 3125fps with H4350.
ELK #1 Cow Broadside 345 yds hit behind shoulder saw dust fly as bullet passed thru. About dime sized in and out with nice blood spray at point where elk stood. No blood at all until elk fell about 35 yds away then lots of blood. Lungs had some damage not shredded though.
ELK#2 Nice Bull uphill 320 yds sharp quartering away but looking back at me. Getting late last day of hunt. Laying across rocks on bipod put crosshairs on shoulder shoot partner watching seeing trace calls good shot elk slowly walks away. No blood nothing found that night or next morning looking for hours.
Came back a week later found Bull about 900 yds away thanks to coyotes. I assume it was bad shot too far back but not enough left of elk to determine exactly.
The next two are why I am bothering to type this as they kinda freaked me out.
ELK#3 Slipping along Bull walks out broadside at 75/80 yds I drop to sitting position put the crosshairs on shoulder shoot loud smack elk drops struggles to get up then rolls over and quit moving. I sit for a few seconds then pull my glass to look down the mountain to see where my partner was and when I look back elk is going in timber and next time I see him he is going over high ridge at about 800 yds away.
Very slight blood trail for about 1000 or so yards never found elk.

Elk#4 See 5x6 elk coming for over a mile away public land in Colorado. I move into position so I can intercept before he gets my wind. I coyote howl to get him to stop at 40 yds but wouldn't you know it he turns towards me right behind a fence post so I can't shoot the neck shoulder junction so I lean as far as I can and shoot him behind the shoulder with him quartering to me. He drops in his tracks BUT as I stand up he jumps up and hauls it across the sage brush and I make a running shot that makes him skid on his nose which was quite the sight. But then he raises up and started trying to get his feet under him but he was broken down. I moved around until I could get a good angle into his lungs crossways up thru his body and shoot again.He rolls over and lays there breathing for what seemed like forever. I finally ease around to the other side so I could see his eyes and he raises up and looks at me.... what the heck. I walk right up to him and put one low right behind the shoulder and finally his dies.

Not really sure what to think honestly because of all the circumstances involved. Been debating over even putting this on the forum but I figured I would get some feedback...

WOWZER!

 

[Hard rock]

In all honesty I'd say in those cases the problem was the shot placement with respect to the bullet used. This is why I do not take lung shots at all personally.

Yes, I may waste a whole pound maybe even pound and a half putting one through the shoulders and spine but nothing gets up and runs off with that shot. It also helps maximize your room for errors.

Same with the heart shot. They may run a few hundred yards but no matter what other conditions exist when the BP hits zero you're seconds away from cells burning off their remaining oxygen.

If I were going to shoot lung shots I'd use something frangible like the Berger, NBT, Hornady SST or Amax so I could guarantee maximum damage and hopefully a big exit as well.

That really sounds frustrating, I'd really like to know what you come up with on why it happened, it doesn't sound like major shot placement issues to me

That in the most honest way I can say sounds terrible. I don't know how to put it any other way. I would very much like to talk with you on the phone tomorrow. [/QUOTE

That really sounds frustrating, I'd really like to know what you come up with on why it happened, it doesn't sound like major shot placement issues to me

I would tend too agree with you , except the lung shots I've witnessed and made with the Hammers they frag and liquify the lungs before exit.

 

[Pdvdh]

I will let y'all decide.
My elk rifle is a 20 inch barreled 1/10.5 twist 300WSM and this season My load was 152gr Hammer Hunters running 3125fps with H4350.
ELK #1 Cow Broadside 345 yds hit behind shoulder saw dust fly as bullet passed thru. About dime sized in and out with nice blood spray at point where elk stood. No blood at all until elk fell about 35 yds away then lots of blood. Lungs had some damage not shredded though.
ELK#2 Nice Bull uphill 320 yds sharp quartering away but looking back at me. Getting late last day of hunt. Laying across rocks on bipod put crosshairs on shoulder shoot partner watching seeing trace calls good shot elk slowly walks away. No blood nothing found that night or next morning looking for hours.
Came back a week later found Bull about 900 yds away thanks to coyotes. I assume it was bad shot too far back but not enough left of elk to determine exactly.
The next two are why I am bothering to type this as they kinda freaked me out.
ELK#3 Slipping along Bull walks out broadside at 75/80 yds I drop to sitting position put the crosshairs on shoulder shoot loud smack elk drops struggles to get up then rolls over and quit moving. I sit for a few seconds then pull my glass to look down the mountain to see where my partner was and when I look back elk is going in timber and next time I see him he is going over high ridge at about 800 yds away.
Very slight blood trail for about 1000 or so yards never found elk.

Elk#4 See 5x6 elk coming for over a mile away public land in Colorado. I move into position so I can intercept before he gets my wind. I coyote howl to get him to stop at 40 yds but wouldn't you know it he turns towards me right behind a fence post so I can't shoot the neck shoulder junction so I lean as far as I can and shoot him behind the shoulder with him quartering to me. He drops in his tracks BUT as I stand up he jumps up and hauls it across the sage brush and I make a running shot that makes him skid on his nose which was quite the sight. But then he raises up and started trying to get his feet under him but he was broken down. I moved around until I could get a good angle into his lungs crossways up thru his body and shoot again.He rolls over and lays there breathing for what seemed like forever. I finally ease around to the other side so I could see his eyes and he raises up and looks at me.... what the heck. I walk right up to him and put one low right behind the shoulder and finally his dies.

Not really sure what to think honestly because of all the circumstances involved. Been debating over even putting this on the forum but I figured I would get some feedback...

Any bullets recovered from those elk?

 

[venatic]

No I did not.

 

[Petey308]

For what it's worth, here's an article citing much more up to date studies giving lots of credence to the effect of hydrostatic shock particularly relative to modern high velocity rifle rounds.

Studies done with much slower and lower energy rounds simply don't provide the same types of data.

I think you must have forgotten the link

 

[Hard rock]

No I did not.

What was determined by Steve and your conversation today, if you don't mind informing us . Steve ask for you too give him a call just curious.

 

[Petey308]

What was determined by Steve and your conversation today, if you don't mind informing us . Steve ask for you too give him a call just curious.

I think we're all probably curious. Transparency would be reassuring and always welcome.

 

[venatic]

I did visit with Steve for about 30 minutes today. He looked up my order timeframe to see if it was in the current batch of copper and it was. He said they would be retesting to verify all was as it should be.
It was a good conversation although we came to no certain answers which was to be expected with the inherent variables in these type situations.

 

[Hard rock]

I did visit with Steve for about 30 minutes today. He looked up my order timeframe to see if it was in the current batch of copper and it was. He said they would be retesting to verify all was as it should be.
It was a good conversation although we came to no certain answers which was to be expected with the inherent variables in these type situations.

Thank you for your response

 

[WildRose]

I think you must have forgotten the link

I hate when I do that. Here's to make up for it.

Is Hydrostatic Shock Real?

In a 1942 edition of Popular Mechanics, an article titled “Super Speed Bullets Knock ‘Em Dead” describes a new wunderkind cartridge that launches a .22-caliber projectile an astounding 5,400 feet per second. The bullet maintains a flat trajectory out to 400 yards, but its real benefit—something...

www.themeateater.com

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com

Now the 2nd article goes into more detail separating out the neurological effect (Hydrostatic Shock) and the physical aspects of tissue damage from fluids being forced through the body at supersonic or near supersonic speeds, (Hydraulic Shock) and the effects of each. It' a long read but well worth the read.

Personally I prefer the term "Hyperstatic Shock", referring to the shockwave and massive increase in pressure it causes as that hydraulic wave passes through the body. "Static" or "Stasis" refers to the natural pressure levels that exist throughout the body, "Hyper" of course referse to the near instantaneous explosion of pressure that accompanies the shockwave as it forced the fluids away from the projectile at many times normal body pressure.

Anyhow, enjoy the reading and take from it what you will.