Bullet failures

[Mike D Texas]

Keep in mind the Berger VLD and the hybrid design are not the same. See this thread for a good explanation on the differences:

Berger Hybrid vs Berger VLD

So I finally got to dissecting a Berger Hybrid not too long ago. What I found confirms my long suspicion as well as others I've talked to about them and their performance. There's an enormous cavity below the open tip and before the core. Not all OTM style bullets are like this, at least not to...

www.longrangehunting.com

The jacket thicknesses, in particular at the ogive, are thicker with the VLD (specifically the post 2011 varieties). This will absolutely make them perform a bit different terminally than the Hybrid design.

So based on the thicker jacket shouldn't they hold together a bit better and pass through, especially given that a large whitetail is 120# where I hunt and all these shots were 300 yards and under?

I currently do not shoot any of the Berger Hybrids.

 

[Petey308]

A classic hunter is a hybrid, not a VLD.

 

[Mike D Texas]

A classic hunter is a hybrid, not a VLD.

I understand but my post stated I was using VLD Hunting not classic hunters.

 

[Petey308]

I understand but my post stated I was using VLD Hunting not classic hunters.

What has been the difference in impact velocity, caliber size (frontal width), sectional density etc?

If you're comparing a 6.5x284 to a 308 that could very well be the reason for the differences you're seeing in terminal performance, especially when the things I mentioned will have changed.

I'm at work so my full attention isn't here right now in this thread. I'm doing my best but I might be missing details. I apologize if I am.

 

[Mike D Texas]

What has been the difference in impact velocity, caliber size (frontal width), sectional density etc?

If you're comparing a 6.5x284 to a 308 that could very well be the reason for the differences you're seeing in terminal performance, especially when the things I mentioned will have changed.

I'm at work so my full attention isn't here right now in this thread. I'm doing my best but I might be missing details. I apologize if I am.

Understood and I appreciate your input. I am supposed to be working as well.

I wasn't trying to compare the 65-284 against the .308 and I understand the differences between the bullets. I used those just as examples of my experiences.

My point was that in years past I had no issues getting pass throughs virtually 100% of the time with the VLD hunting bullets. But within the past 3-5 year time frame I have virtually gotten no pass throughs using the same bullets. I was wondering if something had changed in the construction of the bullets in that time frame. Seems like that was about the time Berger was bought out?

 

[xsn10s]

What has been the difference in impact velocity, caliber size (frontal width), sectional density etc?

If you're comparing a 6.5x284 to a 308 that could very well be the reason for the differences you're seeing in terminal performance, especially when the things I mentioned will have changed.

I'm at work so my full attention isn't here right now in this thread. I'm doing my best but I might be missing details. I apologize if I am.

Yeah Mike I'm working from home and need to concentrate more on that during the day. I will say Berger did sell to Lapua around 2016 so it's possible something changed. I cannot say. But for your application it would seem the target hybrid line would be what I'd pick. But it's pretty esocteric, much like the ELDM line or ELDX. You gotta pick what fits your parameters. For me given where I hunted in Texas (near San Angelo) the shots weren't far at all. The racks are big, but the body size not so much. I used a 308 Win with 168 BT. Shoulder shot and the buck ran 70 yards. I think I'd research results with a Target Hybrid and clear tips with .025 drill bit. YMMV.

 

[Petey308]

Understood and I appreciate your input. I am supposed to be working as well.

I wasn't trying to compare the 65-284 against the .308 and I understand the differences between the bullets. I used those just as examples of my experiences.

My point was that in years past I had no issues getting pass throughs virtually 100% of the time with the VLD hunting bullets. But within the past 3-5 year time frame I have virtually gotten no pass throughs using the same bullets. I was wondering if something had changed in the construction of the bullets in that time frame. Seems like that was about the time Berger was bought out?

I haven't opened up a VLD in a while so it's possible they fixed the issues they created after thickening the jackets in 2011, and now the ogives on the VLDs are more uniform. That would allow for more expansion.

Trimming the meplat on OTM bullets like Bergers, Sierra SMKs, etc will widen the meplat and increase the size of the opening which will definitely increase expansion. Same as drilling the opening. I prefer trimming the meplats because it won't potentially compromise the balance of the bullet if you happen to drill into the core not perfectly parallel with the axis of the bullet.

 

[xsn10s]

I haven't opened up a VLD in a while so it's possible they fixed the issues they created after thickening the jackets in 2011, and now the ogives on the VLDs are more uniform. That would allow for more expansion.

Trimming the meplat on OTM bullets like Bergers, Sierra SMKs, etc will widen the meplat and increase the size of the opening which will definitely increase expansion. Same as drilling the opening. I prefer trimming the meplats because it won't potentially compromise the balance of the bullet if you happen to drill into the core not perfectly parallel with the axis of the bullet.

Just for the record when I say drilling I am not increasing opening size much, if at all. I just clear as per Broz. This is all dependent on which particular bullet. Those guys at LRO have more experience on Bergers than me so I follow their advise.

 

[Petey308]

Just for the record when I say drilling I am not increasing opening size much, if at all. I just clear as per Broz. This is all dependent on which particular bullet. Those guys at LRO have more experience on Bergers than me so I follow their advise.

I get what you're saying. I was just elaborating on the subject since there are many that drill the opening wider and even into the core to increase the cavity size.

There used to be a lot more of an issue with the openings not being even and left more jagged. For target shooting, that's not such a big issue until you're shooting to distances it does lol, but it does matter in regards to terminal ballistics and initiating reliable expansion.

That's when I got into meplat trimming. It lowered BC slightly, but it was worth it. Now that tipping is so common, I just switched to using a tipped bullet to save time at the bench.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I get what you're saying. I was just elaborating on the subject since there are many that drill the opening wider and even into the core to increase the cavity size.

There used to be a lot more of an issue with the openings not being even and left more jagged. For target shooting, that's not such a big issue until you're shooting to distances it does lol, but it does matter in regards to terminal ballistics and initiating reliable expansion.

That's when I got into meplat trimming. It lowered BC slightly, but it was worth it. Now that tipping is so common, I just switched to using a tipped bullet to save time at the bench.

View attachment 336880

What meplat trimmer/uniformer do you use? That's the beauty of CNC machine bullets vs swaged jackets. CNC meplat is clean and consistent. Swaged jackets not so much.

 

[Petey308]

What meplat trimmer/uniformer do you use? That's the beauty of CNC machine bullets vs swaged jackets. CNC meplat is clean and consistent. Swaged jackets not so much.

I used this one before upgrading to using my Giraud trimmer.

Hoover Meplat Trimmer

Use the Hoover Meplat Trimmer to uniform the ogive length and frontal area of the bullet's meplat to achieve more consistent Ballistic Coefficient.

bullettipping.com

Yes, CNC machined bullets don't have that issue, nor do tipped bullets, or now that most companies are doing a better job of not leaving the openings so jagged.

 

[Pdvdh]

What meplat trimmer/uniformer do you use? That's the beauty of CNC machine bullets vs swaged jackets. CNC meplat is clean and consistent. Swaged jackets not so much.

I own and have used the Kevin Cram meplat uniforming tools.

Review of Montour Meplat Trimmer

6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...

www.6mmbr.com

Never had a hamBurger bullet fail to open after I meplat uniformed and countersunk the meplat with these Montour County Rifles' tools. I own the meplat unforming tools for .224, .284, .308, and .338 caliber bullets.

I thin out the leading edge of the meplat with the countersinking tool more than is shown in the below picture. Creates a catcher's glove for hydraulic opening of the tip of the jackets.

I don't use Burger bullets for hunting any longer. Meat shredders. I prefer to grind my game in my meat grinder.

 

[Petey308]

I own and have used the Kevin Cram meplat uniforming tools.

Review of Montour Meplat Trimmer

6mmBR.com is the best guide for 6mm BR Benchrest precision shooting, complete with 6BR FAQ, Reloading Data, Shooter Message Boards, Reader Polls, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips. Equipment reviews (.243 bullets, 30BR cartridge, 6mm Norma...

www.6mmbr.com

Never had a hamBurger bullet fail to open after I meplat uniformed and countersunk the meplat with these Montour County Rifles' tools. I own the meplat unforming tools for .224, .284, .308, and .338 caliber bullets.

I thin out the leading edge of the meplat with the countersinking tool more than is shown in the below picture. Creates a catcher's glove for hydraulic opening of the tip of the jackets.

I don't use Burger bullets for hunting any longer. Meat shredders. I prefer to grind my meat in my meat grinder.


View attachment 336901

Nothing wrong with personal preference

I don't currently shoot Bergers either, but for different reasons.

 

[loonie]

I quit using a lot of Bergers for hunting also. Like a box of Cracker Jack. " Surprise Inside"