Bullet failures

[WildRose]

If a "hunting bullet" impacting at 2700 FPS hitting a 120lb deer behind the shoulder and saying it's not designed for this? I would say it's not a hunting bullet more like a small game bullet. It's truly a horrible feeling when you are shooting a game animal and your bullets won't penetrate and the animal is suffering. I guess I have to much respect for the animal but I don't want them to suffer.

If it's specifically manufactured as a Long Range Hunting Bullet, the it's going to be designed for optimal impact velocities far below what the average hunting bullet is designed for.

It isn't a matter of the bullet to fail to perform as designed, it's a matter of choosing the wrong bullet for the job.

That's the risk we take shooting VLD type bullets at game, even those designed as "hunting bullets" instead of shooting more traditional bullets that are designed for ideal expansion and weight retention at much higher impact velocities.

When you find yourself in that position you need to consider it and adjust your point of Aim accordingly understanding what it is that your chosen LR Hunting bullet is actually designed to do and at what range.

As a rule they are going to be much softer and explosive than even traditional non bonded cup and core bullets like the Sierra Game King or Nosler Partition.

If you don't have the right tool for the job at least do what you can to give it the best chances of success by putting it where it's likely to do the most good.

 

[WildRose]

SD only matters when your comparing bullets of the same construction
A 130 gr 277 cal berger classic hunter should have made a big hole in a 120 lb doe
And that deer shouldnt have gone anywhere

If I had to guess I'd say that in all likelihood the tip wasn't properly opened so it failed to expand.

We had a lot of guys here with that problem and they had to solve it by taking a pin and pushing it into the tip to ensure it was open all the way down into the lead.

The other issue is that they can sometimes get clogged with dirt, hair, tissue etc preventing proper expansion.

That's why so many of the manufacturers have gone to using various types of metal and polycarbonate tips to ensure consistent opening.

 

[Hard rock]

Elk #1 didnt have ideal performance
Zero blood sign
It was recovered and confirmed
Elk #2 was lost
and had zero blood sign on a 320 yard that was a confirmed hit

Thats all i would need to stop using them
[/QUOTE Elk # 1 had nice blood spray and fell dead 35 yds with no blood trail sounds pretty typical of a lung shot . I wouldn't call that zero blood sign. A confirmed hit at 320 yds was just that uphill over the top of the lungs ,a animal can go a long ways if there has been no vitals hit on that shot. The op never confirmed any thing on elk # 2 . Before you blamed any make of any bullet what would be your question ,why you didn't get a clean kill on elk #2 ? Not making any excuses for any brand of bullet my main question would be ?. Did I hit the elk above the lungs below the spine ,with little too no resistance too a deep penetrating bullet , close too the minimum required impact velocity required too perform to it's potential. Also if the bullet hit high in the no man area and penciled through what else could the outcome be . I guess at that point under the same circumstances , I could ask what bullet would have guaranteed any different outcome .

 

[Pdvdh]

Use the Burger bullets for fishing sinkers. Might not even be good for that.

 

[FEENIX]

You're right, it does only matter when comparing bullets of the same construction type.

A Berger Classic Hunter is a hybrid version and the jackets are only .026" thick with a pretty large cavity under the opening. It looks like this:

View attachment 336719

Without sufficient mass (SD) behind it, and impacting at a pretty high velocity, it's very common for it to come apart like it did without exiting.

I do agree it still should have had the ability to drop it quick, and perhaps it would have with a shot placement closer to a nerve plexus.

I've seen very similar results from 130gr SST factory Superformance ammo hitting whitetails around 50-100yards in the same spot (behind the shoulder). The bullet being thin jacketed and not fully bonded, and with a relatively low SD, hitting at such a high impact velocity caused over-expansion and poor penetration. In multiple shots and multiple deer with that ammo, none exited and every deer ran anywhere from 50-300 yards before collapsing. That's just another example I've seen first hand from a 270 in particular.

You are correct!



It is not worth the oxygen, but it is that time again. Cheers!

 

[Marky_mark]

You're right, it does only matter when comparing bullets of the same construction type.

A Berger Classic Hunter is a hybrid version and the jackets are only .026" thick with a pretty large cavity under the opening. It looks like this:

View attachment 336719

Without sufficient mass (SD) behind it, and impacting at a pretty high velocity, it's very common for it to come apart like it did without exiting.

I do agree it still should have had the ability to drop it quick, and perhaps it would have with a shot placement closer to a nerve plexus.

I've seen very similar results from 130gr SST factory Superformance ammo hitting whitetails around 50-100yards in the same spot (behind the shoulder). The bullet being thin jacketed and not fully bonded, and with a relatively low SD, hitting at such a high impact velocity caused over-expansion and poor penetration. In multiple shots and multiple deer with that ammo, none exited and every deer ran anywhere from 50-300 yards before collapsing. That's just another example I've seen first hand from a 270 in particular.

I've shot wolves bigger than this doe with a 223 and 36gr varmint grenades and they had more penetration. On a 120 lb deer, only being able to penetrate one lung when broadside. That Would mean that your getting roughly 6-8" of penetration. Which a 130gr berger out of a 270 win, should easily be able to do. Something doesn't add up

 

[6.5saum/300rum]

I'm not here to argue and agree 100% all bullets have there place and should do what they are designed to do. I guess bullet makers better start giving a maximum impact velocity to go with there minimum impact velocity. I like Berger's and shoot lots of them but I also had a failure with them. Did I have a bad box I don't know but it sure is frustrating when the impossible happens to you.

Bob even says in the video they work at 50yds!

 

[Paladin300]

Thank you guys for all the good discussion on my experience. I would not have believed it had I not experienced it for myself. I had not thought about impact velocity being to high. I understand the sectional density conversation but I don't really know that it is relative to the issue. A sectional density of .250 is more than enough to take down an Elk with a 150 grain bullet in say a 308. It is true velocities are much slower than the 270 but kinetic energy is just north of 2100 ft lbs at 100 yards and velocities should have been around 2750. That deer should have hit the ground on the first shot much less the subsequent two. It makes zero sense even when you consider sectional density. I will be headed to the range when the season ends here next week and I will chrono the rounds to get a more accurate idea of what happened. The bullets could be traveling at a much higher velocity. Remember the reason we went to the Bergers was because we were getting complete pass thru with the eldx with little expansion inside 200 yards. The Bergers had the exact opposite effect. I would try the 140, which have worked well in the past but there are none available. The 140 interbonds have worked quite well but a 130 grain hunting bullet of any flavor from a 270 should have been more than enough to get the job done! Ole Jack would have been sorely disappointed! Needless to say I love Bergers for competitions but I want be using them for hunting in the foreseeable future.

 

[WildRose]

Thank you guys for all the good discussion on my experience. I would not have believed it had I not experienced it for myself. I had not thought about impact velocity being to high. I understand the sectional density conversation but I don't really know that it is relative to the issue. A sectional density of .250 is more than enough to take down an Elk with a 150 grain bullet in say a 308. It is true velocities are much slower than the 270 but kinetic energy is just north of 2100 ft lbs at 100 yards and velocities should have been around 2750. That deer should have hit the ground on the first shot much less the subsequent two. It makes zero sense even when you consider sectional density. I will be headed to the range when the season ends here next week and I will chrono the rounds to get a more accurate idea of what happened. The bullets could be traveling at a much higher velocity. Remember the reason we went to the Bergers was because we were getting complete pass thru with the eldx with little expansion inside 200 yards. The Bergers had the exact opposite effect. I would try the 140, which have worked well in the past but there are none available. The 140 inter bounds have worked quite well but a 130 grain hunting bullet of any flavor from a 270 should have been more than to get the job done!

Sectional density alone cannot tell the story. Bullet construction and materials are what determine how well that SD holds up once contact is made.

Bullets that retain their SD all the way through the target are the solids we use on Dangerous game where maximum penetration is desired.

A lighter constructed bullet that starts shelling out on contact no matter it's original SD won't penetrate well because so much of the mass is lost before it ever penetrates, in some cases, even into the chest cavity, that there's just not enough left to keep driving through the target.

That's why you have to consider the design and intended best use velocity recommendations from the manufacturer and then decide under the circumstances of the moment where to put it or if you should even pass the shot no matter how much it hurts to do so.

There are so many different types and brands of bullets made today with so many different types of construction and recommended impact velocities it can be pretty overwhelming for sure.

It wasn't near this complicated when I started shooting over fifty years ago for sure.

 

[Paladin300]

Sectional density alone cannot tell the story. Bullet construction and materials are what determine how well that SD holds up once contact is made.

Bullets that retain their SD all the way through the target are the solids we use on Dangerous game where maximum penetration is desired.

A lighter constructed bullet that starts shelling out on contact no matter it's original SD won't penetrate well because so much of the mass is lost before it ever penetrates, in some cases, even into the chest cavity, that there's just not enough left to keep driving through the target.

That's why you have to consider the design and intended best use velocity recommendations from the manufacturer and then decide under the circumstances of the moment where to put it or if you should even pass the shot no matter how much it hurts to do so.

There are so many different types and brands of bullets made today with so many different types of construction and recommended impact velocities it can be pretty overwhelming for sure.

It wasn't near this complicated when I started shooting over fifty years ago for sure.

Totally agree!

 

[xsn10s]

I've shot wolves bigger than this doe with a 223 and 36gr varmint grenades and they had more penetration. On a 120 lb deer, only being able to penetrate one lung when broadside. That Would mean that your getting roughly 6-8" of penetration. Which a 130gr berger out of a 270 win, should easily be able to do. Something doesn't add up

Yeah when you consider that Bergers typically penetrate two inches and then expand or fragment 6-8 inches of total penetration something seems off. I have 2800 fps impact at 100 yards so 2750 fps doesn't seem out of the ordinary. One possible explanation could be if the throat is rough then maybe the jacket is compromised. In any case picking a bullet construction to match range and impact velocities might have called for something like a Nosler BT in this case. Or a heavier Berger so one would have more mass for close range impacts.

 

[BEEMAN]

I use the 130 hunting vld out of one of my 6.5x47's. It has been a great bullet on deer from 75 to 500+ yds. Muzzle velocity is right at 3000 FPS. Killed deer from Manitoba to Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas. I will say though that for my other x47 tree stand gun I use the 124 HH. Do you think your muzzle velocity is right? Seems very slow for a 130 gr out of a 270. From the shot you described I agree something isn't right.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Yeah when you consider that Bergers typically penetrate two inches and then expand or fragment 6-8 inches of total penetration something seems off. I have 2800 fps impact at 100 yards so 2750 fps doesn't seem out of the ordinary. One possible explanation could be if the throat is rough then maybe the jacket is compromised. In any case picking a bullet construction to match range and impact velocities might have called for something like a Nosler BT in this case. Or a heavier Berger so one would have more mass for close range impacts.

I've been shooting Berger VLD Hunting bullets for several years but within the last 3-4 years something has changed. I used to get consistent pass throughs on our small Texas whitetail with pretty much any caliber I shot. But the last deer I shot in 2017 with my 6.5-284 did not get a pass through. Luckily he was DRT so no tracking necessary but given that the only hole in the animal was a caliber size entry hole, had he not dropped tracking would have been difficult to impossible.

My 308 shoots 175 VLD Hunting bullets at 2800fps. And the last 3 WT I shot have not had an exit even with what I would consider mild velocity and heavy for caliber bullets.

 

[Petey308]

I've been shooting Berger VLD Hunting bullets for several years but within the last 3-4 years something has changed. I used to get consistent pass throughs on our small Texas whitetail with pretty much any caliber I shot. But the last deer I shot in 2017 with my 6.5-284 did not get a pass through. Luckily he was DRT so no tracking necessary but given that the only hole in the animal was a caliber size entry hole, had he not dropped tracking would have been difficult to impossible.

My 308 shoots 175 VLD Hunting bullets at 2800fps. And the last 3 WT I shot have not had an exit even with what I would consider mild velocity and heavy for caliber bullets.

Keep in mind the Berger VLD and the hybrid design are not the same. See this thread for a good explanation on the differences:

Berger Hybrid vs Berger VLD

So I finally got to dissecting a Berger Hybrid not too long ago. What I found confirms my long suspicion as well as others I've talked to about them and their performance. There's an enormous cavity below the open tip and before the core. Not all OTM style bullets are like this, at least not to...

www.longrangehunting.com

The jacket thicknesses, in particular at the ogive, are thicker with the VLD (specifically the post 2011 varieties). This will absolutely make them perform a bit different terminally than the Hybrid design.