Bullet failures

[WildRose]

I did visit with Steve for about 30 minutes today. He looked up my order timeframe to see if it was in the current batch of copper and it was. He said they would be retesting to verify all was as it should be.
It was a good conversation although we came to no certain answers which was to be expected with the inherent variables in these type situations.

Folks can say whatever they want about Steve, but he's obsessive in the best kind of way about trying to put out the best and most reliable product he can and as keen about providing great customer service as anyone in business today.

If there's an answer out there to be had, he'll get you one.

 

[ButterBean]

Folks can say whatever they want about Steve, but he's obsessive in the best kind of way about trying to put out the best and most reliable product he can and as keen about providing great customer service as anyone in business today.

If there's an answer out there to be had, he'll get you one.

I concur

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I will let y'all decide.
My elk rifle is a 20 inch barreled 1/10.5 twist 300WSM and this season My load was 152gr Hammer Hunters running 3125fps with H4350.
ELK #1 Cow Broadside 345 yds hit behind shoulder saw dust fly as bullet passed thru. About dime sized in and out with nice blood spray at point where elk stood. No blood at all until elk fell about 35 yds away then lots of blood. Lungs had some damage not shredded though.
ELK#2 Nice Bull uphill 320 yds sharp quartering away but looking back at me. Getting late last day of hunt. Laying across rocks on bipod put crosshairs on shoulder shoot partner watching seeing trace calls good shot elk slowly walks away. No blood nothing found that night or next morning looking for hours.
Came back a week later found Bull about 900 yds away thanks to coyotes. I assume it was bad shot too far back but not enough left of elk to determine exactly.
The next two are why I am bothering to type this as they kinda freaked me out.
ELK#3 Slipping along Bull walks out broadside at 75/80 yds I drop to sitting position put the crosshairs on shoulder shoot loud smack elk drops struggles to get up then rolls over and quit moving. I sit for a few seconds then pull my glass to look down the mountain to see where my partner was and when I look back elk is going in timber and next time I see him he is going over high ridge at about 800 yds away.
Very slight blood trail for about 1000 or so yards never found elk.

Elk#4 See 5x6 elk coming for over a mile away public land in Colorado. I move into position so I can intercept before he gets my wind. I coyote howl to get him to stop at 40 yds but wouldn't you know it he turns towards me right behind a fence post so I can't shoot the neck shoulder junction so I lean as far as I can and shoot him behind the shoulder with him quartering to me. He drops in his tracks BUT as I stand up he jumps up and hauls it across the sage brush and I make a running shot that makes him skid on his nose which was quite the sight. But then he raises up and started trying to get his feet under him but he was broken down. I moved around until I could get a good angle into his lungs crossways up thru his body and shoot again.He rolls over and lays there breathing for what seemed like forever. I finally ease around to the other side so I could see his eyes and he raises up and looks at me.... what the heck. I walk right up to him and put one low right behind the shoulder and finally his dies.

Not really sure what to think honestly because of all the circumstances involved. Been debating over even putting this on the forum but I figured I would get some feedback...

After our conversation on the phone. Thank you for calling! We did some low velocity impact testing with the 152g Hammer Hunter. This would be from the same lot of copper that your bullets came from last fall. Here is some pics of the recovered bullets.



I would not call these perfect performance, since they did not shed all of the petals at the low velocities. Definitely not a failure to deform. The 152g Hammer Hunter is one of our most difficult bullets to get full deformation and shed petals at low vel. This is due to the lower sectional density and the shorter nose radius that gains diameter quickly, making it pretty stout. This particular lot of copper wants to hang onto the petals a bit more than we would consider perfect. These impacts are fired at low vel giving the bullets less than full rpm's, inhibiting bullet performance compared to full velocity shots impacted at range. The impact velocities from your elk would have all been higher than these test impacts so it is reasonable to expect that full deformation took place.

The only conclusion after our conversation that I can come up with is that your bullet impacts that caused the elk to drop to the shot and then get back up, had to be close to the spine. I have only ever seen one elk drop on impact that was not hit in the spine. As a general rule if an elk is hit close to the spine it is not close to the vitals or is on the edge of the vitals. If not in the spine, breaking it, they will get back up. Uphill shots that are hitting on the high side are the toughest. They impact high and exit higher increasing the potential for this scenario. No finger pointing from me. I have been in these kind of situations and know exactly how things happen and how it feels.

On a different note, we have been in contact with our copper supplier voicing our needs on future copper orders and have reasonable expectations that our low vel impacts will do better than what I have pics of here.

 

[Marky_mark]

After elk #2 I would have stopped using them and started asking questions

 

[Hard rock]

After elk #2 I would have stopped using them and started asking questions

What questions would you ask about elk #2 ?

 

[Marky_mark]

What questions would you ask about elk #2 ?

Elk #1 didnt have ideal performance
Zero blood sign
It was recovered and confirmed
Elk #2 was lost
and had zero blood sign on a 320 yard that was a confirmed hit

Thats all i would need to stop using them

 

[Paladin300]

Funny this post should come up this week? If you had ask me last week I would have said no. But since last Thursday I have been seriously perplexed. I have been a fan of Berger bullets since day one, having shot them and Lapua for years in competitions but I have never hunted with either. I primarily use either Seirra or Spear 150 btsp in my 270 and don't remember ever loosing an animal. The last couple of years I have been shooting Sako 156 hammerheads with good results. This year I decided to go with the 145 eldx. Killed three deer with them from 200 yards in. Two were bang flop but one ran about 300 yards before she fell. The two bang flops were 160-200 heart shots, the runner was a double lung at 60 yards. None of them had large exit wounds. My furtherest shot where I hunt is just under 250. I say all that to say that for 100-200 lb whitetails inside 200 yards the eldx is a little to much bullet. Thus, I made the decision to lighten up to a 130 grain pill and came across some Berger classic hunters. The bullets grouped inside a half inch and shot great. I do not know the exact velocity but it was somewhere around 2950. I decided to give them a try.

Last Thursday the moment of truth arrived. I had a deer broad side at 100 yards and change. The shot was good and hit the 120 lb Doe directly behind the shoulder. The deer weld around and ran 60 yards to the back corner of the grass patch. She was breathing hard but did not go down. Long story short I put three of the Bergers in her, all three were within a 1 1/2 inch group behind the shoulder without a single exit wound. I changed bullets and put her down with a 250 yard shot from an eldx.

When we dressed her out the right lung was completely destroyed but the left looked almost undamaged. I have been perplexed ever since! Never seen one in 40 years take 3 from a 270???

I want be using Berger classic hunters anymore, but have been wondering if some adjustments might make a difference? Are we pushing them to slow? To fast? How would they perform with a different powder?

270 130 gr Berger ch, W760, cci 400 large primers, Sako brass. Never had what I witnessed happen before but the bullet absolutely failed. Got me wondering if the wrong bullets got put in the wrong box because they completely fragmented inside that deer.

 

[Petey308]

Funny this post should come up this week? If you had ask me last week I would have said no. But since last Thursday I have been seriously perplexed. I have been a fan of Berger bullets since day one, having shot them and Lapua for years in competitions but I have never hunted with either. I primarily use either Seirra or Spear 150 btsp in my 270 and don't remember ever loosing an animal. The last couple of years I have been shooting Sako 156 hammerheads with good results. This year I decided to go with the 145 eldx. Killed three deer with them from 200 yards in. Two were bang flop but one ran about 300 yards before she fell. The two bang flops were 160-200 heart shots, the runner was a double lung at 60 yards. None of them had large exit wounds. My furtherest shot where I hunt is just under 250. I say all that to say that for 100-200 lb whitetails inside 200 yards the eldx is a little to much bullet. Thus, I made the decision to lighten up to a 130 grain pill and came across some Berger classic hunters. The bullets grouped inside a half inch and shot great. I do not know the exact velocity but it was somewhere around 2950. I decided to give them a try.

Last Thursday the moment of truth arrived. I had a deer broad side at 100 yards and change. The shot was good and hit the 120 lb Doe directly behind the shoulder. The deer weld around and ran 60 yards to the back corner of the grass patch. She was breathing hard but did not go down. Long story short I put three of the Bergers in her, all three were within a 1 1/2 inch group behind the shoulder without a single exit wound. I changed bullets and put her down with a 250 yard shot from an eldx.

When we dressed her out the right lung was completely destroyed but the left looked almost undamaged. I have been perplexed ever since! Never seen one in 40 years take 3 from a 270???

I want be using Berger classic hunters anymore, but have been wondering if some adjustments might make a difference? Are we pushing them to slow? To fast? How would they perform with a different powder?

270 130 gr Berger ch, W760, cci 400 large primers, Sako brass. Never had what I witnessed happen before but the bullet absolutely failed. Got me wondering if the wrong bullets got put in the wrong box because they completely fragmented inside that deer.

You're using a soft/frangible bullet (Berger
classic hunter) at a high impact velocity (likely above 2700fps based on your MV) and with a sectional density of only .242.

Your bullet didn't fail. It was used outside of its limitations for that shot. That bullet with only that much SD would do best with an impact velocity under 2400fps.

You'd have been better using a 140gr classic hunter instead, which has an SD of .261 and impact velocity also would have likely been a bit lower considering the extra 10gr of bullet weight. Both of those things would have better balanced expansion and penetration.

You're comparing a tougher constructed ELDX to a softer constructed Berger. Other considerations need to be addressed when switching to a different type of bullet. Of the two choices you have there, I'd stick with the ELDX, or ensure SD is sufficient when using a softer, more frangible bullet if you still wanted to switch.

Just throwing this out there, for whatever it's worth.

 

[Marky_mark]

Im going to go with... that deer should be on the ground stone dead, for $1000 Alex
Not sure, what to think about that one?

 

[6.5saum/300rum]

If a "hunting bullet" impacting at 2700 FPS hitting a 120lb deer behind the shoulder and saying it's not designed for this? I would say it's not a hunting bullet more like a small game bullet. It's truly a horrible feeling when you are shooting a game animal and your bullets won't penetrate and the animal is suffering. I guess I have to much respect for the animal but I don't want them to suffer.

 

[Marky_mark]

If a "hunting bullet" impacting at 2700 FPS hitting a 120lb deer behind the shoulder and saying it's not designed for this? I would say it's not a hunting bullet more like a small game bullet. It's truly a horrible feeling when you are shooting a game animal and your bullets won't penetrate and the animal is suffering. I guess I have to much respect for the animal but I don't want them to suffer.

That deer should have a hole in it the size of a baseball

 

[Petey308]

If a "hunting bullet" impacting at 2700 FPS hitting a 120lb deer behind the shoulder and saying it's not designed for this? I would say it's not a hunting bullet more like a small game bullet. It's truly a horrible feeling when you are shooting a game animal and your bullets won't penetrate and the animal is suffering. I guess I have to much respect for the animal but I don't want them to suffer.

First off, is small game not considered hunting?

That class of bullet is designed as a hunting bullet, but that PARTICULAR one was used outside its limitations. This can and dies occur with any bullet.

It impacted with too much velocity for the amount of sectional density it has. It lacked sufficient mass to continue penetrating.

If it were maybe used in a cartridge that would produce less MV, it would likely be a much better combo. There are quite a few 6.8mm/.277" cartridges that would fit that bill.

Lumping all bullets together with no regard to things like sectional density, impact velocity, construction/composition, amount of resistance upon impact, width of the frontal area of meplat, etc, etc is unfair.

Saying every ELDX, Berger, Sierra GameKing, Nosler BT, etc, etc should perform the same no matter the weight of it, caliber size, impact velocity, shot placement, etc is simply not right. Same with any other bullet. There are other variables involved that determine the terminal performance than just the type/class of bullet.

2700fps impact velocity with a 150gr ELDX (like he's used before) isn't bad because it has plenty of SD even though at that velocity it's still fairly fragile, especially if it were a shoulder shot rather than behind it.

If he'd have used a 140gr Berger Classic Hunter, he may very well have produced a baseball size exit hole. Heck, slightly further back, more into the rear lobes and/or liver area, even the 130fe might have been able to produce a large exit. Hard to say for sure.

 

[Marky_mark]

SD only matters when your comparing bullets of the same construction
A 130 gr 277 cal berger classic hunter should have made a big hole in a 120 lb doe
And that deer shouldnt have gone anywhere

 

[Petey308]

SD only matters when your comparing bullets of the same construction
A 130 gr 277 cal berger classic hunter should have made a big hole in a 120 lb doe
And that deer shouldnt have gone anywhere

You're right, it does only matter when comparing bullets of the same construction type.

A Berger Classic Hunter is a hybrid version and the jackets are only .026" thick with a pretty large cavity under the opening. It looks like this:

Without sufficient mass (SD) behind it, and impacting at a pretty high velocity, it's very common for it to come apart like it did without exiting.

I do agree it still should have had the ability to drop it quick, and perhaps it would have with a shot placement closer to a nerve plexus.

I've seen very similar results from 130gr SST factory Superformance ammo hitting whitetails around 50-100yards in the same spot (behind the shoulder). The bullet being thin jacketed and not fully bonded, and with a relatively low SD, hitting at such a high impact velocity caused over-expansion and poor penetration. In multiple shots and multiple deer with that ammo, none exited and every deer ran anywhere from 50-300 yards before collapsing. That's just another example I've seen first hand from a 270 in particular.