Bullet failures

[WildRose]

The first deer I shot when I was 13 yrs old in 1963 Nov22nd, was a 11 point buck shot through the shoulders, with a 139 gr Norma 6.5 x55 Swedish Mauser at about 100 yds and the deer was DRT, with a big exit and he didn't pivot ,or turn in circles. Was that bullet failure?

No, in all likelihood the big ugly exit was due to the bullet turning bone into fragments.

Can you remember what bullet you were using?

 

[LVJ76]

About the only shooter error I can see from what you have described is that you were using the wrong bullet for the animal. I have been using Nosler partitions in both the .308 and .270 for many years. The only partition that I ever had blow through was a 130 gr partition shot at a small doe at 50 yards. The round was factory not a hand load. It was a Federal Premium Nosler Partition 130 gr. It left the muzzle of my Tikka T3x at around 3060 fps and at 50 yards had only slowed to about 2945 fps. Energy wise it had dropped from around 2703 ft lbs down to 2507 ft lbs. It hit the deer behind the shoulder between the ribs and blew out the other side only leaving a hole about 3/4 inch in diameter. Didn't matter since the deer dropped in place and never moved with it's heart blown in half and lungs pulverized as the bullet zipped through. The cause for the lack of expansion was not bullet failure but the fact that the bullet hit so fast and so hard and between ribs that the bullet barely had time to do much of any expanding before it passed through the other side. Think about it, travelling at 2507 fps how long does it take to transverse maybe 12 to 6 inches through a small deer?
You didn't mention what the caliber was of the rifle or the size of the partition fired both of which have a pronounced effect on what a bullet does. If I had been shooting my .308 chance are that the bullet would not have zipped through so fast and would have had more time to expand. To be honest I have never had a .308 partition exit any deer I have shot with it, most of them dropping on the spot and the bullet fully expanded recovered when dressing out the deer.

We've found that partitions can be too hard for coues deer, that's why I called it shooter error. We changed to behind the shoulder shots and they didn't work as well anymore. Trying to save meat.

On coues and javelinas we've always had partitions exit, they are small and doesn't take much to go through those small bodies.

Even the SST's, Ballistic Tips and Gamekings will go through them. I have little experience with Bergers, but they also exited.

Now here is a story on an accubond, which you would think would give an exit wound. My buddy hit a deer broadside with a 140gr AB out if his 270 WSM and impact was 80 yds. Bullet entry was behind the shoulder with little damage to lungs and stuck on hide of opposite side. At that close range you would think that bullet would've gone through the deer but no.

Deer only took a couple of seconds to go down. We walked to it and it was still breathing. Slow death, and surprised of the poor penetration and lack of damage to lungs by an Accubond.

 

[WildRose]

We've found that partitions can be too hard for coues deer, that's why I called it shooter error. We changed to behind the shoulder shots and they didn't work as well anymore. Trying to save meat.

On coues and javelinas we've always had partitions exit, they are small and doesn't take much to go through those small bodies.

Even the SST's, Ballistic Tips and Gamekings will go through them. I have little experience with Bergers, but they also exited.

Now here is a story on an accubond, which you would think would give an exit wound. My buddy hit a deer broadside with a 140gr AB out if his 270 WSM and impact was 80 yds. Bullet entry was behind the shoulder with little damage to lungs and stuck on hide of opposite side. At that close range you would think that bullet would've gone through the deer but no.

Deer only took a couple of seconds to go down. We walked to it and it was still breathing. Slow death, and surprised of the poor penetration and lack of damage to lungs by an Accubond.

Shoot enough animals and you're going to see just about every weird thing you can imagine a bullet doing.

 

[Teri Anne]

We've found that partitions can be too hard for coues deer, that's why I called it shooter error. We changed to behind the shoulder shots and they didn't work as well anymore. Trying to save meat.

On coues and javelinas we've always had partitions exit, they are small and doesn't take much to go through those small bodies.

Even the SST's, Ballistic Tips and Gamekings will go through them. I have little experience with Bergers, but they also exited.

Now here is a story on an accubond, which you would think would give an exit wound. My buddy hit a deer broadside with a 140gr AB out if his 270 WSM and impact was 80 yds. Bullet entry was behind the shoulder with little damage to lungs and stuck on hide of opposite side. At that close range you would think that bullet would've gone through the deer but no.

Deer only took a couple of seconds to go down. We walked to it and it was still breathing. Slow death, and surprised of the poor penetration and lack of damage to lungs by an Accubond.

It seems that there are a bunch of variables here. A 140 gr accubond on a deer sized target unless one is shooting at the proverbial 30 pointer is a bit of overkill, more attuned to an Elk size target and I know many will argue that it takes a larger bullet for Elk, so be it. My thought pattern here is that the bullet did not fail, the deer went down and whether or not it exited is a moot point. The fact that there was little lung damage to my way of thinking means that very little of the lung was hit but all of the bullet energy was dissipated withing the deer, that too is not a bullet failure. There was no mention of heart damage so obviously the bullet hit somewhere where it did not affect the heart which means either high or too far back. The bottom line here is that the bullet in reality did not fail. it did it's job despite a not so perfect shot.

 

[WildRose]

It seems that there are a bunch of variables here. A 140 gr accubond on a deer sized target unless one is shooting at the proverbial 30 pointer is a bit of overkill

Based on what exactly?

We pick a particular bullet for it's flight characteristics/BC. 140gr in a 6.5, 277, or 7mm is more of an average sized bullet for those calibers where it would be way light for caliber in a .30 cal.

The purpose of Bonded bullets is to achieve controlled expansion with minimal weight loss so that's not a factor either really.

Just know what to expect from those bullets and put them where most appropriate.

 

[LVJ76]

It seems that there are a bunch of variables here. A 140 gr accubond on a deer sized target unless one is shooting at the proverbial 30 pointer is a bit of overkill, more attuned to an Elk size target and I know many will argue that it takes a larger bullet for Elk, so be it. My thought pattern here is that the bullet did not fail, the deer went down and whether or not it exited is a moot point. The fact that there was little lung damage to my way of thinking means that very little of the lung was hit but all of the bullet energy was dissipated withing the deer, that too is not a bullet failure. There was no mention of heart damage so obviously the bullet hit somewhere where it did not affect the heart which means either high or too far back. The bottom line here is that the bullet in reality did not fail. it did it's job despite a not so perfect shot.

Yes the deer did die, bullet failure? Yes and no. But bullets do weird things sometimes.

I still would've expected an exit wound on that deer with this bullet, especially at that close range, but instead got a pretty mushroomed bullet.

Being that the bullet lost all its energy inside the animal, the damage witnessed said otherwise, again, we expected to find no lungs left.

Agree, a bonded bullet is Not a good choice in these smaller animals.

 

[Teri Anne]

I'm the same way. I want predictable, proven, consistent performance.

If you have that and adjust your shot placement accordingly you're going to succeed about every time if you do your part.

I agree that predictability is desired but in many cases no more than a pipe dream. One chooses a particular cartridge/bullet combination based on their experience in the area they normally hunt and the desired prey. There are however way too many variables involved in hunting to simply state that any one cartridge or bullet combination will have proven and consistent performance. You make a choice based on experience and then modify your actions to make that choice work in any given situation you come by while hunting. That is why they call it, " Hunting, " instead of planned execution.

 

[OldElkHunter1961]

I frequently use some pretty soft, traditional bullets when I set up on a trail know the elk will be herded up passing my ambush point. Obviously over penetration is the concern with an unseen cow or calf behind the target animal. In all cases the Game King or Ballistic Tip is a wreck. Generally only find the base of the jackets cup. But both lungs are also a wreck, and the elk falls within 20-30 yards. Put the pill where it belongs after launching it at a velocity within it's performance envelope, at an ethical range. It'll do it's duty.

 

[JMW67]

I frequently use some pretty soft, traditional bullets when I set up on a trail know the elk will be herded up passing my ambush point. Obviously over penetration is the concern with an unseen cow or calf behind the target animal. In all cases the Game King or Ballistic Tip is a wreck. Generally only find the base of the jackets cup. But both lungs are also a wreck, and the elk falls within 20-30 yards. Put the pill where it belongs after launching it at a velocity within it's performance envelope, at an ethical range. It'll do it's duty.

And the congregation said AMEN

 

[WildRose]

I agree that predictability is desired but in many cases no more than a pipe dream. One chooses a particular cartridge/bullet combination based on their experience in the area they normally hunt and the desired prey. There are however way too many variables involved in hunting to simply state that any one cartridge or bullet combination will have proven and consistent performance. You make a choice based on experience and then modify your actions to make that choice work in any given situation you come by while hunting. That is why they call it, " Hunting, " instead of planned execution.

Well no.

Bullets more often than not perform as designed so it's up to us to match the bullets we choose to our targets. That includes not just the size and thickness/toughness of the hair, hide, meat, and bone combination but the intended point of impact.

Bonded bullets are specifically designed not to break up or shed more than about 75% of their weight even when punching through hard bone.

Thin, light jacketed bullets are the opposite, they are designed to shed maximum weight even when hitting soft areas of the vitals avoiding all heavy bones.

The Accubond is probably not the most desirable bullet if you prefer a behind the shoulder shot on a light bodied deer, there's just not enough resistance to get it to mushroom consistently so you may not get the expansion you want.

Conversely if you're trying to punch the shoulders and spine with the SST, BT, or Amax, you stand a good chance of not getting enough penetration and having them simply shell out on contact.

That's why for best results we need to consider not only the size and weight of our intended target, but the intended range they are to be shot at.

Then you put it all together with shot placement respecting the game and the bullet you chose and put it where it's most likely to give you the best results consistently.

Then of course we can talk about the different types of Mono's and how they are designed which is typically quite different and with no core to worry about bullet separation/breakup is of far less concerned. The problem with mono's then is that for the most part they don't give you the same diameter hole due to limited expansion so again, you have to figure that into your equation.

When everyone was killing their game at 30-150yds shooting grampa's old .30-30 or 30-06 shooting Remington Corelock or Silvertips things were far less complicated for sure.

Today however we have an almost endless variety of bullets designed for different purposes, conditions, animals, and ranges so it takes more work on our part to get the job done quickly and cleanly every time.

Respect the game and the bullet and put it where it will do the most good and your odds of success are very high.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Do people seriously buy into the theory that an expanding bullet can be "too fast" to expand in a body cavity?

Maybe I've got it all wrong and don't understand terminal ballistics.

 

[WildRose]

Do people seriously buy into the theory that an expanding bullet can be "too fast" to expand in a body cavity?

Maybe I've got it all wrong and don't understand terminal ballistics.

I have a hard time accepting that theory. If a bullet pencils through it's still traveling the same distance as one that fully expands. HP bullets can be very unreliable about expansion due to inconsistency in the tips and that's where I see the most people complaining about bullets failing to expand.

If anything, energy being what it is the bullets all else being equal should expand much better at high velocity than low velocity.

I've heard complaints about the Partitions failing to expand at high velocity when not hitting hard bone but from the bullets I've recovered and seen recovered what actually happens is that at high velocity the forward portion of the bullet in front of the partition is completely lost shallow and the remaining core and jacket behind the partition then pencil out the other side.

I think the "too fast to expand" theory is more of a case of someone said it and it sounded good to people who didn't know better so it just got repeated a lot.

 

[Pdvdh]

Do people seriously buy into the theory that an expanding bullet can be "too fast" to expand in a body cavity?

Serious people don't...

 

[Rich Coyle]

I frequently use some pretty soft, traditional bullets when I set up on a trail know the elk will be herded up passing my ambush point. Obviously over penetration is the concern with an unseen cow or calf behind the target animal. In all cases the Game King or Ballistic Tip is a wreck. Generally only find the base of the jackets cup. But both lungs are also a wreck, and the elk falls within 20-30 yards. Put the pill where it belongs after launching it at a velocity within it's performance envelope, at an ethical range. It'll do it's duty.

All of us here hunt "at an ethical range." Some are way longer than others.