Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[FEENIX]

do you mono guys practice with the same bullets you hunt with?

I'm not sure I could afford to shoot as much as I do, I assume I would have to have a separate training load

https://drtammo.com/ has a very innovative approach to this situation; as far as I know, they are the only ones with this offering below.

(https://drtammo.com/product/drt-30-cal-175gr-terminal-match-projectile-50-pcs/)

(https://drtammo.com/product/drt-terminal-shock-30-cal-175gr-projectile-50pcs/)

 

[bultinkle]

https://drtammo.com/ has a very innovative approach to this situation; as far as I know, they are the only ones with this offering below.

View attachment 491563
(https://drtammo.com/product/drt-30-cal-175gr-terminal-match-projectile-50-pcs/)

View attachment 491565
(https://drtammo.com/product/drt-terminal-shock-30-cal-175gr-projectile-50pcs/)

Nice idea there

 

[FEENIX]

Nice idea there

I thought so, too.

 

[memtb]

do you mono guys practice with the same bullets you hunt with?

I'm not sure I could afford to shoot as much as I do, I assume I would have to have a separate training load

No! In fact…..much of our practice isn't even with our hunting rifles!

The shooting fundamentals are much the same, no matter the firearm …..provided it's of similar action, trigger pull, size and weight! For example, many years ago we bought a pair of Ruger 77/22's (the safety is similar to our Model 70 Win.) which weigh very closely to that of our hunting rifles, did a trigger job, cut my wife's down to same LOP as her hunting rifle. Basically make them as similar as is practical.

Obviously, they can't replicate felt recoil, nor can we shoot long distance to work with doping wind ect., but we're still working the basic fundamentals! And, shooting them is a bit more affordable! memtb

 

[bultinkle]

Trainer rifles make a lot of sense for that, and pay off a lot faster when you're saying 1k+ a year on components for sure!

 

[nralifer]

I've seen the 300gr .338" A-tip punch right through at 150 yards (still killed the deer), but came apart and balanced out very well at 600 yards. Starting mass makes a huge difference with lead core bullets just like it can and does with monos. Sometimes mass can be too high and the expansion is delayed to the point it's already exited by the time it could really open up. As velocity lowers, the expansion timing is better. Amount of resistance upon impact makes a big difference too. In that example, a more substantial animal would likely have allowed that bullet to expand well even at 150 yards.

I've killed a lot with a 208gr ELDM (AMAX prior to it) and 195gr TMK too at pretty high impact velocities and they've always performed beautifully. I've used many other lead cores, but those two significantly the most, as far as a version of soft construction that many would think would just blow up on or near the surface. They never have.

Bullets like that don't "over mushroom". They shed material as they mushroom and that allows them to keep penetrating until they either exit or do indeed lose enough momentum to stop. If there's insufficient starting mass, or too much with too little resistance, they tend to perform more unfavorably. Monos with too little or too much mass tend to have their own complications from that as well.

And yes, the trend continues to be high BC. Hornady is pushing towards to more now, but others like Berger have for a while. Sierra too with the TMK and TGK. The Raptor, Lazer, and MTH from Cutting Edge has pushed BC for a long time as well. I do not foresee this trend going away either. Hunters and shooters will continue to demand more and better and the manufacturers will continue to try to give themselves the edge over their competitors.

I had an experience 180 gr SGK shot from my 300 WSM where mushrooming of the bullet did not help. Hit a Black Wildebeest in the mid lung at 340 yds and he proceeded to run a mile before collapsing exhausted. Had to finish him off with s second shot. The first shot existed his chest causing a silver dollar sized hole which relied air accumulation in the pleural cavity, preventing collapse of the lungs under pressure. Clearly a case of over-expansion. Since, I have done the same shot on a Pronghorn Antelope with a small 70 gr .243 prototype bullet we made at 400+ yds with small entrance and exit holes that led the animal to die in less than a minute while running away. The bullet clearly expanded because there was a large wound channel in the collapsed lungs but both entrance and exit holes were small and self sealing allowing air to be trapped in the chest under pressure stopping blood flow from the right side of the heart to flow into the lungs to be oxygenated.
With regard to timing of expansion of monos, it is not accurate to generalize about this in monos because of the variable types of alloys that are used and the structure of their hollow cavities. In general though, the lower the impact velocity in clear gel the longer it takes for expansion to occur. We see this repeatedly in low speed gel tests. The reverse is seen as well. We cannot get other monos to expand consistently below 2000 fps. Tips delay expansion, because when these are removed expansion happens at considerably lower impact velocities. The price though is loss of BC.

 

[diggdugg70]

I think that you will find an awful lot of LRH posters in disagreement with that statement. If there are "zero" reason to use copper bullets in states that don't require them; why are so many of us using them? It certainly isn't to save money. LOL

Because they've fallen for the "lead is bad for the environment" scam and that's why. I never said going with copper was to save money I actually said the opposite.

 

[diggdugg70]

Not sure all of the reasons. I'd love to know just how many of the 120,000+ members here use which type of bullet, or at least their main preference, if for nothing else to satisfy the curiosity.

I'd venture to say copper bullets are such a hot topic and get talked about so much anymore that it's often assumed so many are using them. As in more than may actually be using them.

I feel confident though, by the evidence of supply and demand, that lead core bullet use still FAR outnumbers copper bullet use.

And I know many that use copper bullets are only doing so because they believe they're better for the environment, better for their own health, and believe the marketing that they're better than lead core bullets regarding terminal performance. And I'm not saying they're right or wrong, because that's not my point at the moment. I'm just saying that there are plenty using them based purely on their own perceptions and opinions. Those people would be no more right and no more wrong than those saying there's zero reason to use them other than a law/regulation.

I say use what you want, but have the knowledge to empower you to succeed. That means know how to pick the right bullet, no matter its composition, for your particular needs. Know the limitations of it and how to adjust for them on the fly.

Threads like this SHOULD be used to help us do just that. They should help us figure out what works best with each design and how to apply it. It's unfortunate they tend to just turn people against one another and they fight about irrelevant things and personal preferences more than anything else.

You know I shoot the TTSX's, between me and my buddy I, we've found the combination for our guns and the TTSX's that work and 99% of the animals have gone down with one shot where they stood.

 

[diggdugg70]

So much talk about there's no perfect bullet and there never will be... perfect hunting bullets exist now. The best of the currently available bullets based on budget, regulatory framework, type of hunting and shot distances, adequate precision, BC value sufficient to maintain minimum required expansion velocity, tolerable meat destruction upon impact..., i.e. best suit MY personal uses and preferences.

So I have my perfect, suitable, lethal bullets. Often, two different bullets are loaded and carried on my hunts. One perfect for charging bear. One perfect for distant game.

My current hunting bullets for LRH of large game (past 6-7 seasons) are lathe-turned and tipped copper monos. BC values of copper monos needed to improve for my hunting. When they did, I could use them. Perfect for me could be butt-ugly for you...

The marketplace of bullet choices does evolve over time. I participate to keep pace with the current available selection of hunting bullets. Equip and acquaint myself with knowledge and understanding to make my decision: which bullets are perfect - today.

I disagree, They all have their flaws in one way or another whether it's poor BC's, don't stay together on impact, don't mushroom properly or hard to find a good load for and so on and so on.

 

[diggdugg70]

digg,
That's what I used before I switched to Hammers.

We have no reason to switch, we've yet to have a bullet failure to where we lost an animal or it ran off and had to track it. The only animal that ran was that 400lb bear and that's because he was already running and was blowing blood from his lungs.

 

[FEENIX]

We have no reason to switch, we've yet to have a bullet failure to where we lost an animal or it ran off and had to track it. The only animal that ran was that 400lb bear and that's because he was already running and was blowing blood from his lungs.

Exactly! Stick with what historically works for you and meets your satisfaction. Sometimes, despite the best effort in shot placement and right bullet choice, the game expires differently. Sadly, when this happens, people blame it on the bullet.

 

[Noobie]

The measurement we need is the max COAL of your loaded round that will fit in your magazine. I use the 250 gr BD2 ( ogive length 0.850") in a 338 LM mag fed from a 3.75" internal length mag. I know the BC on that bullet is not as high as the SBD2 (G7=0.379) but it will kill a Cape Buff easily, and kill an Elk with no problem at 1000 -1300 yds. The SBD2 bullet has a rather long ogive and may not work for mag feeding but single feed should be no problem. What is the parent case for your wildcat?

The COAL of my .338 WC is 3.60 max for magazine feed. The case length is 2.825 max. Twist is 1:10. If your 250 gr super BD2 will fit, that would be great. If the ogive on the 250gr is .850, might have to go a bit smaller as I only have .750 to play with? That would be OK. Please let me know the heaviest BD2 that will fit. It looks like the 225 gr will do nicely.

 

[FEENIX]

The COAL of my .338 WC is 3.60 max for magazine feed. The case length is 2.825 max. Twist is 1:10. If your 250 gr super BD2 will fit, that would be great. If the ogive on the 250gr is .850, might have to go a bit smaller as I only have .750 to play with? That would be OK. Please let me know the heaviest BD2 that will fit. It looks like the 225 gr will do nicely.

That depends on how far down you are willing seat it. Below is my .338 Thor (NMI) with 300g Berger at 3.7" COAL.

 

[ButterBean]

Because they've fallen for the "lead is bad for the environment" scam and that's why. I never said going with copper was to save money I actually said the opposite.

You are assuming and your off base by a mile or so