I will second that!
Bullet Construction vs Lethality
- Thread starter nralifer
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
xsn10s
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 7,626
I get it when comparing price vs performance, especially when the focus is a long range hunting forum. Whether I have 600 or 6 grand in a rifle I'll practise a lot with it. So given the ballistics of the three bullets mentioned in you sale I'll take the Berger 156 gr EOL. I could get twice as many bullets for the price of the other two. And it has far more range than the other two and is a know killer.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
A solution I've used in the past, that I no longer need within my parameters. It would be nice to know how far you shoot at game.
It's interesting how actual skin in the game affects choices.
What would be "your" obvious reasons, and why would it be illogical, or unfair?
I used to use a lot of moderate velocity cartridges, and from my experience with bullets impacting at 3500+ fps it adds significantly to lethality. Either cup and core or, mono.
From a straight math standpoint it would seem to be a legitimate factor of exterior ballistics, as well as terminal, for those entering factors into their actual personal needs.
Right
️On the closer range end of the spectrum of shot distances, I've used two varieties of .338 copper monos on Kodiak brown bear. One at 50 yds. One at 110 yds. Broadside chest shots thru the ribs. One fell back onto its bed, after it stood up and presented the shot. The other trotted less than 40yds.
The longer range end of the spectrum of my shots, hunting large game animals..., what I plan, prep, and select bullets for, is ~900yds. I do maintain expansion velocity out past 1K yds with my 338 LAI. But longest distance of kill since using the copper monos which was ~6yrs ago, is 795yds.
If I was planning to shoot past 1,000yds, I would consider a frangible, tipped, lead-core jacketed bullet. That's just me... what's perfect for me.
This!
That's interesting when time and time again we see guys talk about lead core bullets and that they "splash", "disintegrate", "explode", etc impacting at those velocities, or even slower than that. I do not subscribe to that line of thinking though.
The obvious reasons are that many hunters tend to unknowingly pick a version of a lead core bullet that will not hold up adequately when impacting that fast, or at least not be reliable and consistent. That said, more and more are figuring that out all the time and I think many now do fully understand the chances of over-expansion and shallow penetration are greatest in that scenario with certain lead core bullets. We see more and more short action cartridges being used now, with high BC and heavy for caliber lead core bullets that produce emphatic results at short and long range.
Some guys go with a smaller and slower pushing cartridge, others go for a stronger bullet like a mono.
Most monos still perform best at high impact velocities. Some have higher BCs that allow them to retain more velocity, even starting out a bit slower from a smaller cartridge. That means they still impact at a sufficient speed. That's another reason BC can be quite important. It can increase the capability of smaller cartridges, particularly with monos.
Here's something to think about: Hunting deer here where I live, it's most common to shoot them from a ground blind, box blind, or tree stand. Distances are typically 200 yards and in, and the vast majority are 20-70 yards at the most. I and a few friends do hunt fields where we've taken deer and coyotes to over 1200 yards, it's just not common at all.
A guy that buys a 300 RUM, 28 Nosler, 338LM, etc to hunt like that may be lacking knowledge or awareness to begin with. And then when he uses a standard lead core bullet, and blows the deer apart, he tends to blame the bullet.
Then, if that guy switches to a mono and sees less damage, he now says, "wow, these copper bullets are way better". He may think copper bullets are now superior to lead.
It's flawed logic though. It wasn't that the lead core was a bad design. It's that he was asking something ridiculous from it, and he likely picked a poor version as well. I was once that guy. I'll fully admit it. I had to clear my head.
The fact that the mono does less damage in that scenario tells us it's actually inferior in many ways (not saying overall) to how much trauma it produces. It tells us trauma and damage would likely only get much less as impact velocity lowers. The lead core would only get better, as it balances out more regarding expansion vs penetration. So now in that scenario, the results are flip flopped. So now do we say the lead core is superior? Some would, some wouldn't. Some would say that while the copper still can work at low velocities, it makes it overall more capable and superior. Perspective and preference really start taking ahold of the viewpoint and conclusions.
But there's way more to it. It's not that simple. And when we start comparing reliability, how to get a lead core to still work at high impact velocities, how lead cores can work reliably to way lower impact velocities, they have a longer overall range, can be highly effective from smaller cartridges even at long range, they cost way less, etc, etc. we can also say lead cores are superior.
Both people may feel they're correct. Since both types of bullets have their strengths and weaknesses, and both have different designs and mechanisms, it's unfair to say as a whole one is truly superior over the other. When you compare scenarios that are highly mismatched, it is unfair. There are many different types of monos. There are many different types of lead cores. Picking a different kind of either can change the outcome of certain scenarios.
So I say it's illogical and unfair to say a copper mono is superior to lead core bullets simply because you can push them so fast and get good results, where certain lead cores may not do so well. Since monos work best at high speeds, it stands to reason pushing them that fast from the start would be ok, especially if their BC is on the low end. The higher the MV, the more it compensates for that.
A lead core, being more dense and capable of being pushed slower from the start, while still being stable and retaining plenty of velocity, makes them not even need to be pushed so fast, especially if the BC is high.
I ultimately see it as which one is more superior is based on the particular scenario and what you're asking of the bullet. A certain mono may be the superior choice in that scenario. A certain lead core might be the superior choice in a different scenario. To say one overall is superior over the other I do believe is unfair and illogical.
I don't know if that answered your questions. My brain is fried after a long day. I may have to come back later and reattempt after I recover lol.
I say all the above with utmost respect and mean no offense to anyone. Please don't read too far into my scenarios and examples and think I'm picking on anyone or talking down about anyone. It's just the best way I could think to get my point across. I have nothing against what cartridges anyone uses if even why. I'd just love to see everyone succeed and have the knowledge and resources to do that without being inundated with misinformation or personal preferences being pushed upon them as fact and what they should do or use.
If a mono is the best choice for how you hunt, get a great one and good luck to you out there. If a lead core is the best choice, get a great one and good luck to you out there.
Last edited:
I can appreciate that approach & one's personal choice for the given circumstances.
My approach differs in that my circumstances do not require "planning" to shoot past 1000.
I focus on reliable terminal performance
At the ranges I typically take big game within the parameters of my personal & equipment capabilities. This is based on my personal skills & type of hunting I do. Mono bullets are becoming my first consideration for the task. It's now arguably a very viable option with the recent improvements & new entries into the market.
It's a good place to be, being able to have options
That fit individual needs. We all benefit.
nralifer
Well-Known Member
The measurement we need is the max COAL of your loaded round that will fit in your magazine. I use the 250 gr BD2 ( ogive length 0.850") in a 338 LM mag fed from a 3.75" internal length mag. I know the BC on that bullet is not as high as the SBD2 (G7=0.379) but it will kill a Cape Buff easily, and kill an Elk with no problem at 1000 -1300 yds. The SBD2 bullet has a rather long ogive and may not work for mag feeding but single feed should be no problem. What is the parent case for your wildcat?
I run cheaper loads for proficiency training, but I still like to go put several rounds of my actual hunting load down range at several different distances before my hunt.
I use coyote hunting year round to keep me proficient too. It helps a lot. I want to get in a good amount of practice with a particular load though before I switch to it for game. So I'll practice on targets and make sure I'm practiced on the dope for that load. And sometimes the coyote hunting proves unsuccessful and I have to resort to targets only anyway.
The B-2 pilots here where I work only fly the B-2 like once or twice a month. They fly the T-38 multiple times a week to stay proficient. It's a something I relate to this.
It's important to stay proficient, but cost and sense come into play. It costs less and makes more sense to practice with something cheaper, yet it keeps you sharp. You can still keep the big guns and higher class bullets ready to go though, and you still need to practice with those too to make sure you don't develop bad habits.
Last edited:
nralifer
Well-Known Member
I look at Hornady specifically. I don't know how they make such a huge number of different bullets for even one caliber. Lately it is clear that they are giving BC a lot of importance with their ELD and A-Tip introductions, emphasizing high BC in their marketing. We had already been selling our high BC all copper bullets for years before the A-Tips came out. The interesting fact is for a lead core hunting bullet a high BC can be counterproductive at ranges of 250 yds or less, because they don't lose enough speed to prevent the lead core from over mushrooming. Penetration can be surprisingly poor. A high BC copper bullet does not have that problem as long as it expands reliably. So, in selecting a bullet to hunt with, the high BC copper bullet greatly simplifies the choice. For me I have gone from using the 338 Dakota, the 300 WSM the 243Win as my choices for hunting big game trying to tailor the case and lead core bullet to the animal I was hunting to going to simply the 308 Win with a 20" barrel at 2950 fps using the 150 gr BD or BD2 for everything except Prairie Dogs and Alaskan Brown Bears. It's almost boring.
I do but I'm not shooting crazy numbers of round a session
Gotcha, it makes sense with a lot of people on here really enjoying reloading. I hate it and don't even like having 2 loads of the same cartridge for different guns. If I could id just use the same load in both, total means to an end
I probably take for granted being able to train with the exact same trajectory as I hunt with, but I could see if I felt there was a huge difference in terminal performance putting up with it, though I'm on a pretty fixed shooting budget, so increasing my component costs x2 would have to hurt my shooting time. I do have some coppers I load for a friend in 243 and I made him a training load with vmax. Though he doesn't shoot the round count needed honestly to make it useful.
I probably take for granted being able to train with the exact same trajectory as I hunt with, but I could see if I felt there was a huge difference in terminal performance putting up with it, though I'm on a pretty fixed shooting budget, so increasing my component costs x2 would have to hurt my shooting time. I do have some coppers I load for a friend in 243 and I made him a training load with vmax. Though he doesn't shoot the round count needed honestly to make it useful.
I've seen the 300gr .338" A-tip punch right through at 150 yards (still killed the deer), but came apart and balanced out very well at 600 yards. Starting mass makes a huge difference with lead core bullets just like it can and does with monos. Sometimes mass can be too high and the expansion is delayed to the point it's already exited by the time it could really open up. As velocity lowers, the expansion timing is better. Amount of resistance upon impact makes a big difference too. In that example, a more substantial animal would likely have allowed that bullet to expand well even at 150 yards.
I've killed a lot with a 208gr ELDM (AMAX prior to it) and 195gr TMK too at pretty high impact velocities and they've always performed beautifully. I've used many other lead cores, but those two significantly the most, as far as a version of soft construction that many would think would just blow up on or near the surface. They never have.
Bullets like that don't "over mushroom". They shed material as they mushroom and that allows them to keep penetrating until they either exit or do indeed lose enough momentum to stop. If there's insufficient starting mass, or too much with too little resistance, they tend to perform more unfavorably. Monos with too little or too much mass tend to have their own complications from that as well.
And yes, the trend continues to be high BC. Hornady is pushing towards to more now, but others like Berger have for a while. Sierra too with the TMK and TGK. The Raptor, Lazer, and MTH from Cutting Edge has pushed BC for a long time as well. I do not foresee this trend going away either. Hunters and shooters will continue to demand more and better and the manufacturers will continue to try to give themselves the edge over their competitors.
