Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[nralifer]

Your joking right?

I would venture to say that the vast majority of Deer are taken within 500 yds. 1MOA accuracy, although not ideal, is sufficient at that distance.

 

[nralifer]

I think there would need to be discussion on proprietary composition of the bullets and an explanation by copper bullet manufacturers as to why they chose the composition for the final product. What made the final product choice "better" than competitor bullets. Until manufacturers are ready to produce that industry sensitive/classified information, I think trying to obtain anecdotal evidence on performance by consumers/hunters is potentially an exercise in futility in determining the best bullet.

That's about as much smarts a I can let out today. Gonna go shoot some stuff!

A lot of factors influence the decision on which copper alloy a given manufacturer uses. The first is the method of manufacturing they wish to use. If it is a forming method, then they use soft alloys because the bullets need to be formed or pressed into shape by a series of dies. Thus half hard C110 copper or gilding copper is used, and the copper stock comes in spools of wire of the right precursor diameter, cut in pieces whose weight is that of the bullet before being formed in dies. The advantage of that method is high volume of production but the bullet shapes are limited by what die shapes can be made. Also the die cost is large as the forming happens in a series of steps thus needing a whole set of dies to be made. Ultimately the bullet comes out harder than the starting material because of the phenomenon of work hardening.
For those that choose to use an automatic Swiss lathe, the copper needs to be harder to start with since it has to be cut down to the bullet shape. Little to no work hardening of the bullet occurs, but bullet prototyping is much less expensive and a lot faster since the bullet is designed on CAD software and reduced to a tool path by CAM software programing. The bullet stock has to be available in long bars of appropriate diameter, usually 12 feet, and what we have discovered, the bars have to be made with as little internal stress in the bars as possible, otherwise the bullets come out crooked. Another major advantage of machining the bullets is that dimensional tolerances are very tight and ogival and boat tail shapes can be made that produce bullets of very high BC. There is free machining copper which produces small chips and is easier to machine but it is harder and more brittle than C110 full hard copper which profoundly affects how the bullets expand at impact, thus the petals break off soon after impact, and the hardness of the copper causes the bullets to "expand" unreliably at low impact velocities. Hope this answers your question.

 

[cbuck516]

Amount of money and time i spend behind my rifle shooting nothing's worse then getting that critter at 100 yards lol like **** i shoulda built a muzzleloader

I would argue that going home with an empty cooler to a hungry family is worse. I will gratefully accept a 100 yard shot because I have high confidence in my ability to feed my family at that range.

 

[BillLarson]

When are you going to tell us about the bullets you make, why they're the best and why everything else sucks?

Never heard such rude comments made to another mans thread.....
The man asked for information..... from the wealth of information we have at hand.

 

[DoneNOut]

Never heard such rude comments made to another mans thread.....
The man asked for information..... from the wealth of information we have at hand.

Bill, you should look at the beatings I take when I try to troubleshoot a problem with a cleaning solvent, or have a bad piece of brass...things men wouldn't say in face to face conversation ever.

 

[fordy]

Gday nrailer

Consequently copper bullets made out of C110 or gilding copper alloys these bullets to behave in a manner similar to the Partition bullet

With the utmost respect mate
Do you just dream this stuff up

If you stand by that above you have more to learn than I thought especially on how & why a bullet kills or creates the mechanism/system that this particular pill uses .
although I'll give you the bit on the partition part but that is also not the whole story
Yes a very good bullet of its era & will still take a lot of game today but definitely better pills in today's world

Cheers

 

[BillLarson]

Back to the matter. Does anybody have video evidence of animals being hit at 1000yds with various bullets to determine the lethality?

Many videos containing such info.... Google you tube..... and outfitter videos....

 

[BillLarson]

Bill, you should look at the beatings I take when I try to troubleshoot a problem with a cleaning solvent, or have a bad piece of brass...things men wouldn't say in face to face conversation ever.

This is why most will not use their real name in internet conversations....

 

[ButterBean]

I would venture to say that the vast majority of Deer are taken within 500 yds. 1MOA accuracy, although not ideal, is sufficient at that distance.

Perfectly aware of that, the legendary shooting that this gentleman is doing should be in the record books somewhere I would think

 

[BillLarson]

Perfectly aware of that, the legendary shooting that this gentleman is doing should be in the record books somewhere I would think

How does this statement add to the initial subject....????...
Personal attacks are not what this forum is about......

 

[LDHunter]

Although I strongly agree that personal attacks aren't what this forum is about, I also think that calling BS in a somewhat polite and non personal way should be allowed. Political correctness has been a very large part of what this country (USA) is suffering from and it shouldn't be used to restrict free speech or muzzle criticism.

Some pretty outrageous claims have been made in this thread and I've kept quiet about them but I'd like to see more validation. I've been on this forum long enough (since the beginning) and there is always some bullet or another that is the latest whiz bang end all do all fan boy fad.

Then we inevitably move on to the next big thing. Taking the long range perspective can shed some light on why tempers flare and why people get upset about what is the best bullet for any/all situations.

This too shall pass...........

 

[xsn10s]

How does this statement add to the initial subject....????...
Personal attacks are not what this forum is about......

I think of Jerry Easley when I see statements like this. I sure miss his civility and grace.

 

[cohunt]

Although I strongly agree that personal attacks aren't what this forum is about, I also think that calling BS in a somewhat polite and non personal way should be allowed. Political correctness has been a very large part of what this country (USA) is suffering from and it shouldn't be used to restrict free speech or muzzle criticism.

Some pretty outrageous claims have been made in this thread and I've kept quiet about them but I'd like to see more validation. I've been on this forum long enough (since the beginning) and there is always some bullet or another that is the latest whiz bang end all do all fan boy fad.

Remember the crud show that went on when fordy stated the number of animals he's taken?
People attacked him like wild dogs on fresh meat.
Then we all found out that hunting is his profession-- and he's pretty darn good at it.

Sometimes "bs" has to be called, and a man needs to back up his statements with hard evidence for people to take them seriously. This is the internet.

I try to stay neutral and let other people call bs, but every once in a while someone pushes the right button in me too.

In response to Steve's 1/2 moa question---i can shoot single shot cold bore groups of 1/2 moa any/every day of the week, 365 days a year--- the problem comes when I start shooting more than 1 bullet ---

People will allways have personal preferences- and should, but in my eyes the 1st priority for lrh is getting the accuracy you feel is adequate for the distances you shoot (if you can't hit the animal you can't kill it)--- then comes terminal performance.

That's where personal preference steps in combined with proven performance on the animal. If you have 2 different bullet constructions that kill, then let a guy choose which one he likes. Everyone need not use the same one.

I like to see discussions with hard data, that way I can make my own decisions based off my own needs--- I love to say "you do you", to me that's 'merica!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Gday Steve
I've never asked this question but heard from a very reliable source that gives me confidence it's not just selling that enters your mind

So how many forms of copper did you guys play with & sent to the metal recycling facility before setting on the one you use now
Just rough numbers not worried to much with actual in this case

For others a little snippet of what I'm referring to in the above is
Steve & Brian came out to Aussie to do some testing ( & more than likely to see I wasn't full of $h-t lol )
& I'll stay with true solids for now & exclude the hht ( although it's more applicable to more people imo but another day )

In the .510 cal from 400 gr to 570 gr the true solid was absolutely useless in my eyes yet not one animal made it more than 15 /20 yard yet most bangflop ( bovines my wild dog didn't like them & didn't put up any resistance )
So what was the outcome I'll not bore anyone with those details but dead is not just dead & until one understands that you will never get a better pill from any company & why we have to be careful on listening to their recommendations yes I'll stand by that 100% or is it a case of dead is dead to them mmmmm I'll let the individual decide that

on talking in the field & over a couple cold ones I saw that these solids were never going to hit the market phew & many discussions on alloys were had & still ongoing between Steve & Brian no doubt ( I hope so ) the company they had already got the green light to send to we're told they needed to work on the alloy so they would not be receiving solids until they worked out a better alloy

So it is why I asked the first bit to Steve as it's not just spinning a pill up regardless of what the alloy does it's finding one that has the widest possible window for the wider community now this is extremely difficult

But we as individuals can also learn to not take what some of these companies preach & a way better source is our fellow hunter just not the ones that dead is dead & the ones that speak the truth are hard to find also

Thanks to the ones that clear their heads & push / try to get a even better pill

Cheers

We recycled nearly 4k lbs of copper that wouldn't impact the way we wanted. We still have two or three thousand pounds of copper in the shop that is set aside to be used for target bullets. (Proper alloy but not proper characteristics). To answer your question, we tried three or four alloys and then several tweaks in the current alloy.

Yes, after testing our new line of solids on water buffalo, the decision was made to delay the commercial order that is standing, until we can get a more suitable material for the job. We will market the product that we tested with you, but not as a true solid. We will market them as an expanding solid. A true solid must not expand or fracture. Another balancing act that I am hoping does not lead to recycled raw material.

I am now convinced that a big flood plain water buffalo bull is the toughest animal on the planet to fully penetrate. Pass that test and it's good to go.