Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[cbuck516]

I shot a whitetail scrub buck at 10 yards with a 215 hybrid and it worked perfectly anybody used a whiz bang bullet closer than that?

Maybe if you execute them that's when the failures start??

Not sure exactly what you are calling a "whiz bang", but I have used badlands bullets as close as 30 yards at impact velocity of 3500fps. Shot placement on that one was not ideal (nephew shot into some brush), but bullet was very lethal.
I have used hammers as close as 100 yards on elk and was very pleased with its performance.

Conversely, I have used a "long range" lead core bullet at 100 yards on elk with very poor results. MV was around 2800fps on that load and that bullet exploded on that elk at 100 yards. Made the most ridiculous mess I have ever seen of the guts and wasted a ton of meat. Shot placement was almost perfect double lung and there was shank that passed all the way through, but blood trail was nearly nonexistent. I was really lucky to find that animal. There must have been some pretty significant fragmentation on impact given how far back I found tissue damage.

That experience resulted in my interest in mono bullets and I haven't looked back since. Now that I am shooting "tougher" bullets that don't splatter, I have actually trained myself to start shooting more into the shoulder than I used to. Meat loss with both hammer and badlands bullets has been very minimal in my small handful of kills with them. I have one rifle that really likes the Barnes LRX so I will likely be using that one this year at some point as well.

 

[memtb]

Many videos containing such info.... Google you tube..... and outfitter videos....

Bill, with much respect, I contend that many things posted on the internet, YouTube, or even on the long range shooting shows are heavily edited …..or is down right BS. I'm continually impressed (not) that there is never a wounded animal that limps off …..not found, or perhaps found the next day after the meat has long spoiled!

They seem to avoid telling/showing the failures! memtb

 

[memtb]

I shot a whitetail scrub buck at 10 yards with a 215 hybrid and it worked perfectly anybody used a whiz bang bullet closer than that?

Maybe if you execute them that's when the failures start??

I know that it appears that I'm constantly calling you out …..but it just happens!

A Whitetail Deer is not much of a test for a 215 grain bullet of most any design/construction/manufacture! Jus Say'n! memtb

 

[DoneNOut]

Bill, with much respect, I contend that many things posted on the internet, YouTube, or even on the long range shooting shows are heavily edited …..or is down right BS. I'm continually impressed (not) that there is never a wounded animal that limps off …..not found, or perhaps found the next day after the meat has long spoiled!

They seem to avoid telling/showing the failures! memtb

I also saw a video claiming a deer died from the bullet passing very close to it...LOL

 

[memtb]

If someone would send me the gel blocks, bullets to be tested, I would load them to 1000yd velocities and test those bullets in the gel. I know, rough duty I'm volunteering, but I would do it for all ya'lls! (We would all have to understand that would be a direct comparison between the bullets in that particular and calibrated test medium, for gel tests don't always a real true indicator of terminal ballistics on animals)

Don't forget to factor in the misses at 1000 yards! Reducing the velocity is pretty easy….but what percentage of the shots should be a miss? I assume that the 'face" of the gell would fairly represent the kill zone of the animal intended to be hunted! memtb

 

[bultinkle]

I know that it appears that I'm constantly calling you out …..but it just happens!

Fwiw no hard feelings here

A Whitetail Deer is not much of a test for a 215 grain bullet of most any design/construction/manufacture! Jus Say'n! memtb

I understand that. Unfortunately I can't offer experience I don't have. When I get the opportunity to shoot an elk at 10 yards I won't hesitate. The closest elk I can offer is 106 with a 190vld and it……. Again had no issue

 

[Mike Matteson]

BC is very important for two reasons. The first is that high BC bullets shoot flatter and have less wind drift than low BC ones. The second is that BC determines the effective range of the bullet given the impact speed necessary for a reliable expansion. If the BC difference is large enough it can make a huge difference in bullet energy. I have tested the BC on 150 gr 308 bullets and compared them to our BC on our 150 gr bullet and saw that under standard conditions the Bullet energy differed by about 500 ft-lbs at 600 yds in favor of our bullet. Both were shot at comparable speeds.

I alway look at the BC in any bullet I use. Then I watch how they react in hitting any animal. If wasn't me that did the shooting, I would ask others, what type of bullets they were using. Come up with what I wanted out of a bullet, and that what I use. Without stating what I am using. I have said that enough time before. I don't shoot sludge hammer bullets thru the air either. I also limit my range to about 500yds. I have shot animals at 30yds or less and out to just over 500yds. They worked just fine, as long as I did my job of bullet placement. If I didn't I had a problem. That was because I hit them in the gut straight thru.
I have found that trying to figure who's or what bullet is the best is a waste of time. If there picture supplied of animals shot and the damage done to them. I make note of that. I don't have a big enough bowl to put popcorn in to eat while reading this and other threads on this.
You have to remember my bullet is better than yours!

 

[memtb]

I understand that. Unfortunately I can't offer experience I don't have. When I get the opportunity to shoot an elk at 10 yards I won't hesitate. The closest elk I can offer is 106 with a 190vld and it……. Again had no issue

Me too…..my closest was probably at around 15 yards. Would have been an easy 10 yards or so shot on a sleeping "spike" ….but, he went from sleeping to near mach 1 in the very brief moment I was raising my rifle!

He was moving so fast left to right…..I ended up gut-shooting him! But the hit made him so sick…..a follow-up shot was pretty easy! Another endorsement for my "use enough gun" philosophy! memtb

 

[Barehandlineman11]

I bought 10lbs gelatin ill make some blocks and try a bunch of bullets. Ill do 100 and 1000 yards.. probably be 250-230 atips, 245 bergers 208 215 bergers, eldm's 208-225 and hammer 203. Also 6.5prc 147eldm and a 6 creedmoor. Only doing 203hht because its only bullet id probably use. Give me month or two to do this. Ill try get go pros set up and my lr camera get multiple angles from bench too target

 

[nralifer]

I alway look at the BC in any bullet I use. Then I watch how they react in hitting any animal. If wasn't me that did the shooting, I would ask others, what type of bullets they were using. Come up with what I wanted out of a bullet, and that what I use. Without stating what I am using. I have said that enough time before. I don't shoot sludge hammer bullets thru the air either. I also limit my range to about 500yds. I have shot animals at 30yds or less and out to just over 500yds. They worked just fine, as long as I did my job of bullet placement. If I didn't I had a problem. That was because I hit them in the gut straight thru.
I have found that trying to figure who's or what bullet is the best is a waste of time. If there picture supplied of animals shot and the damage done to them. I make note of that. I don't have a big enough bowl to put popcorn in to eat while reading this and other threads on this.
You have to remember my bullet is better than yours!

I know that this thread is turning into kind of a s*** show. Certainly not my intention, but I felt I had to defend myself in as a polite way as I could.

 

[nralifer]

Not sure exactly what you are calling a "whiz bang", but I have used badlands bullets as close as 30 yards at impact velocity of 3500fps. Shot placement on that one was not ideal (nephew shot into some brush), but bullet was very lethal.
I have used hammers as close as 100 yards on elk and was very pleased with its performance.

Conversely, I have used a "long range" lead core bullet at 100 yards on elk with very poor results. MV was around 2800fps on that load and that bullet exploded on that elk at 100 yards. Made the most ridiculous mess I have ever seen of the guts and wasted a ton of meat. Shot placement was almost perfect double lung and there was shank that passed all the way through, but blood trail was nearly nonexistent. I was really lucky to find that animal. There must have been some pretty significant fragmentation on impact given how far back I found tissue damage.

That experience resulted in my interest in mono bullets and I haven't looked back since. Now that I am shooting "tougher" bullets that don't splatter, I have actually trained myself to start shooting more into the shoulder than I used to. Meat loss with both hammer and badlands bullets has been very minimal in my small handful of kills with them. I have one rifle that really likes the Barnes LRX so I will likely be using that one this year at some point as well.

You make some good observations. The only thing I would like to comment on is the double lung shot. That shot can be tricky for any bullet. The first thing to say is that lung blood flow in the mid to rear of the lungs is lower and less concentrated than up front close to the heart. That's because the main pulmonary artery and the first segmental pulmonary arteries are there and they have the same blood flow collectively as the high pressure aorta. If you rip them open the animal will bleed into the chest rapidly and lose consciousness quickly. At the mid lung don't expect a large blood trail, and if the exit hole is large a Deer or Antelope can run hundreds of yards. That is because a large exit hole stops the formation of a tension pneumothorax. It likely is eventually a lethal shot but the animal may take the rest of the day to expire. A better result is to not have a large exit hole that is self sealing. This causes entrapment of air in the space between the chest wall and lung known as the pleural space. With heavy breathing that space fills with air rapidly, and eventually pressurizes the trapped air to the point that the lungs are fully collapsed and squeezed to a very small volume. The consequence of that is catastrophic drop in blood flow from the heart to the brain and relative rapid loss of consciousness. The animal may run 50 -100 yds before collapsing.

 

[choprzrul]

154gr Hammer Hunter Tipped (HHT) launched out of a 300 RUM at 3715 fps gets to 1000 yards still going 1799 fps and retains 1107 ft lbs of energy.

That 4715 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle is going to be a lively recoil event.....but this projectile should perform just fine from 10 yards to 1000 yards.

Load data exists for the above in Hammer's data....albeit from a 30" barrel.....and there is another load showing 3875 fps if your shoulder really likes abuse...

.

 

[Philward]

Wow, 12 pages in 24 hours.

I'm not worried about rankings of bullet performance, I just use the one that I can shoot the best in my rifle. They will all kill animals.

 

[Snowboy]

@BillLarson, I know what you mean, if you are receptive to learning and information sharing, it makes it a non-conducive environment - too many unnecessary distractors. From the start most people knew it is going to be controversial. Having said that, I respect George's (@nralifer) post and intent esp. as a site sponsor and Badlands Bullets owner, not that it matters.

George my apologies for contributing to the distractions. I too am here to learn. I learned early on that there are always somebody with more real-world experience and knowledge that are always willing and able to lend a helping hand. I miss those old timers that either no longer with us or have since moved on elsewhere - Jerry/JEC Custom, LTLR, goodgrouper, BROZ, etc.

I guess I am an old timer with 5 decades of experience shooting for fun and shooting to kill.
In all the big game kills (moose and deer mostly) I have been the most fortunate hunter to live. All but one animal ( 60 plus) has never made it more than 40 yards.
I have used every type of bullet available in my area for everything from target shooting to moose hunting. The target shooting has been limited to 400 yards due to range limitations on the farm. Accuracy was a priority before I would use a bullet hunting. 1.5 moa was the goal but not always achievable before I would use a bullet for hunting rounds. Bullets used over the years have been Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition, Barnes x, Remington Core Lok, Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interbonds, Hornady SST, Federal Trophy Bonded, Federal Terminal Ascent and a few others I have forgotten as I age.
All these have been good inside my self imposed limit of 400 yards but some better than others. I am currently testing mono bullets for the fall hunt.
In retrospect I feel that I am more of a hunter than a shooter with the first goal being to find the animal then the decision to take a shot no matter what the situation gives me. The lung/heart shot being first choice(not always available) demands premium bullets that will not self destruct.
I love how many choices we currently have in factory ammo. My next tool may be a 7mm PRC but my 300 magnums are not going anywhere.