Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[Taj]

That's my 2 cents worth. For what it's worth anyway.

 

[Snowboy]

I shoot gelatin for a living and can comment on a few things in this regard. I do wound ballistic workshops for a major ammo manufacturer and all of my customers are law enforcement. Most of what I shoot are handgun calibers and we always shoot the FBI protocol. We do shoot a few rifle calibers that are applicable to LE but keep in mind that the FBI protocol does not apply to rifle calibers. First of all, bullets do not penetrate "a ways" before they start to expand. I wish we could program them to do that but bullet expansion starts on contact with what ever medium it's shot into. At velocities over about 2000-2100 fps temporary cavitation does come into play, which is basically a product of energy transfer. This will vary with terminal velocity but usually tissue stretch resulting from temp cavitation at velocities over 2000 fps results in tissue tearing and increased hemorrhaging. Bullet expansion plays a big part in energy transfer/ temp cavitation because it decreases the time over which that energy is transferred. Bullet design and construction plays a big part in how a bullet expands and the velocities at which they will expand. Some bullets are extremely fragile at very short ranges so expansion happens very rapidly and often to the point that energy destroys the bullet. This can result in catastrophic damage at short range but will also limit penetration. Bullets that come apart lose total mass and do not penetrate as well as the same weight bullet that stays intact. Terminal ballistics is always a balancing act of performance criteria.

I agree with 50+ years of experience.

 

[willfrye027]

I shoot gelatin for a living and can comment on a few things in this regard. I do wound ballistic workshops for a major ammo manufacturer and all of my customers are law enforcement. Most of what I shoot are handgun calibers and we always shoot the FBI protocol. We do shoot a few rifle calibers that are applicable to LE but keep in mind that the FBI protocol does not apply to rifle calibers. First of all, bullets do not penetrate "a ways" before they start to expand. I wish we could program them to do that but bullet expansion starts on contact with what ever medium it's shot into. At velocities over about 2000-2100 fps temporary cavitation does come into play, which is basically a product of energy transfer. This will vary with terminal velocity but usually tissue stretch resulting from temp cavitation at velocities over 2000 fps results in tissue tearing and increased hemorrhaging. Bullet expansion plays a big part in energy transfer/ temp cavitation because it decreases the time over which that energy is transferred. Bullet design and construction plays a big part in how a bullet expands and the velocities at which they will expand. Some bullets are extremely fragile at very short ranges so expansion happens very rapidly and often to the point that energy destroys the bullet. This can result in catastrophic damage at short range but will also limit penetration. Bullets that come apart lose total mass and do not penetrate as well as the same weight bullet that stays intact. Terminal ballistics is always a balancing act of performance criteria.

I guess I was referring to the wound "neck".

Real world, I've had a couple broadside shots on thin, small deer with Berger's and the far side lung was obliterated but the closer lung had a much smaller, quarter sized wound.

Same bullet in a cow elk began to violently expand after making it though shoulder muscle and rib.

In gel it seems like the wound neck on a Berger is often longer than, say an ELD-M.

In contrast to an ELD-M which seems to have a short wound neck and expands rapidly.

I've yet to see a gelatin test where the bullet has a similar sized permanent wound cavity through the length of the block, unless it's a very small permanent cavity from a mono or accubond. Which I do not find desirable, personally.

Definitely not an expert by any means but I do kill a good number of animals, dissect the wound cavity, and pay attention to what bullet I am shooting and why.

 

[Darryle]

Just go ahead and tell us you luv Burgers.

I had a hatch chili bison burger for lunch, count?

I used to be a soft point Interlock shooter, but for some reason I switched to Accubond/Partion and the Berger VLD-H. It wasn't because the Interlock quit killing, I think that as velocity increased I quit seeing the accuracy I wanted or I wanted better accuracy for some untold reason. I may have to step back and try the old bullets again and see what happens.

 

[Darryle]

What I'm interested in finding out is why some manufacturers prefer mushrooms instead of shedding petals?

Why did you design your bullet to mushroom and not shed petals? Did you test both designs? And what were the outcomes, and what tests were conducted?

I prefer a mushroom, when we get a big deer here that pushes 150lbs on the hoof, the loss of meat becomes a consideration.

I also have a small farm that is a hair over 60 acres, but it produces some good deer on occasion, but the property backs up to a piece of government land that is off limits regardless of the situation, even if the game warden is involved. So we need to anchor the deer to keep them on our side of the fence.

I hope by the time I read up to my replies, I will have gained a lot of information to educate me.

 

[Snowboy]

I prefer a mushroom, when we get a big deer here that pushes 150lbs on the hoof, the loss of meat becomes a consideration.

I also have a small farm that is a hair over 60 acres, but it produces some good deer on occasion, but the property backs up to a piece of government land that is off limits regardless of the situation, even if the game warden is involved. So we need to anchor the deer to keep them on our side of the fence.

I hope by the time I read up to my replies, I will have gained a lot of information to educate me.

A big deer here is 250 lbs. field dressed. I know how you feel.

 

[Taj]

What I'm interested in finding out is why some manufacturers prefer mushrooms instead of shedding petals?

Why did you design your bullet to mushroom and not shed petals? Did you test both designs? And what were the outcomes, and what tests were conducted?

Beeman
To the best of my knowledge there are no manufacturers that purposely design hunting (or defense) bullets that shed their petals. Hunting bullets perform much better when they stay intact. Any bullet that sheds mass, penetrates less and that is an indication of poor design or a bullet that has a velocity that is outside of it's velocity design envelope. The company I work for NEVER wants to see a bullet than sheds petals or comes apart in any way.

 

[fordy]

Remember the crud show that went on when fordy stated the number of animals he's taken?
People attacked him like wild dogs on fresh meat.
Then we all found out that hunting is his profession-- and he's pretty darn good at it.

Sometimes "bs" has to be called, and a man needs to back up his statements with hard evidence for people to take them seriously. This is the internet.

Hey cohunt I forgot about those lovely days here on lrh lucky I kept back the true numbers & guess my apology is in the mail with my Xmas cards I was sure I was going to receive

I don't worry these days on those personal attacks on myself as I've worked out why they are attacking

but when it becomes personal to others I have issues with that & that is BS not calling out the bs that's the difference imo
But one should back their claims up
Imo of course

Cheers
Ps I apologise for the way the above is set out yep I'm not good @ this writing stuff combined with computers & im the full muppet

 

[memtb]

A big deer here is 250 lbs. field dressed. I know how you feel.

That is a big deer…..of course, you folks up yonder have big bodied deer! A deer like that "may" require sump'n a bit tougher than a Prairie Dog bullet! memtb

 

[memtb]

Beeman
To the best of my knowledge there are no manufacturers that purposely design hunting (or defense) bullets that shed their petals. Hunting bullets perform much better when they stay intact. Any bullet that sheds mass, penetrates less and that is an indication of poor design or a bullet that has a velocity that is outside of it's velocity design envelope. The company I work for NEVER wants to see a bullet than sheds petals or comes apart in any way.

You should be introduced to Hammer Bullets! memtb

 

[BEEMAN]

Beeman
To the best of my knowledge there are no manufacturers that purposely design hunting (or defense) bullets that shed their petals. Hunting bullets perform much better when they stay intact. Any bullet that sheds mass, penetrates less and that is an indication of poor design or a bullet that has a velocity that is outside of it's velocity design envelope. The company I work for NEVER wants to see a bullet than sheds petals or comes apart in any way.

You might want to look at Hammer bullets, Apex, and cutting edge to name a few that are designed to shed nose petals.

Still not sure why the owner of these bullets won't answer my questions. Others have tried to answer, but I'd like to hear his answer as to mushrooming or shedding petals and the tests conducted.

 

[fordy]

Beeman
To the best of my knowledge there are no manufacturers that purposely design hunting (or defense) bullets that shed their petals. Hunting bullets perform much better when they stay intact. Any bullet that sheds mass, penetrates less and that is an indication of poor design or a bullet that has a velocity that is outside of its velocity design envelope. The company I work for NEVER wants to see a bullet than sheds petals or comes apart in any way.

Gday Taj


Just a general query
With these bullets above you are only testing true solid bullets ? Or the pills that retain 100% or very near to it

The reason I ask this is if we don't get a shedding of weight in a pill eg it starts @150 gr & the retained weight is 100 gr when it stops your killing for nearly all critters is quicker & im seeing potential in some of the DG to even confirm this will also hold true

This above dosent matter if you use a frangible or mono that sheds
They have repeatedly shown that if they shed weight they create a better wound channel ( broadly speaking as when you get to different designs things go ea way from the average ) vrs a pill that retains all or extremely close to its weight & this I should get the backing from even the guys that don't like me

hard part is on monos it isn't as simple as just making a pill shed weight it's how it's done & it's pattern of doing it that determines it's effectiveness



Cheers

 

[Snowboy]

That is a big deer…..of course, you folks up yonder have big bodied deer! A deer like that "may" require sump'n a bit tougher than a Prairie Dog bullet! memtb

 

[fordy]

You should be introduced to Hammer Bullets! memtb

Better not leave the others out of that conversation as you will get labeled
Cheers