TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

[WYO300RUM]

Thanks for sharing your experiences Sir! I hope you've healed up fully from your falls. Hunting can be treacherous at times! I see you're in N/W Wyoming. I had an Uncle who lived in the N/E corner, in Moorcroft. I love Wyoming.

I too like to get closer, when possible. Shot placement is the key. Being closer makes that much easier, especially in a field position and in uncertain environmental conditions. The steep wide-open valley where we found my Son's spike contained 65 Elk, and several were good spikes. As we snuck over the ridge, laid in a snow bank and glassed the herd, we found they were spread throughout the valley. Trying to work our way closer to the big spike he wanted would have spooked the cows near to us, and blown the hunt. I built my Son's rifle, along with a local gunsmith / suppressor maker, and that darned 6.5-284 cartridge sure is accurate with my handloads. As I mentioned, we enjoy stretching out our practice sessions and have good reliable dope out to 1200 yards. Still, 702 yards is a long shot on a big tough animal such as an Elk. They can be tough to kill quickly. The ELD-M has always performed great for us in 6.5mm.

Your impressive experiences with the terminal performance of Hammers and Barnes bullets does not surprise me. It's incredible how much destruction a rifle bullet creates. I haven't used the TSX-style bullets in our rifles, but only because I've not had them shoot accurately. I tried several options with various powders and, for whatever reason, I couldn't get them to shoot well at all. I know many many folks have had success, so I'll never discredit them. For close hunting shots I have had wonderful results with bonded bullets (e.g. AccuBonds, Norma Oryx and Lapua Mega) and I don't know that there's anything better than a Nosler Partition. I have also had surprisingly good experience with Sierra Game King hollow points in 6mm and .308 caliber. You'd think a hollow point would "open up" faster and fragment but these must have tougher jackets. They create a good wound channel and punch through. I've never recovered one, and they blow a golf-ball sized (or larger) hole through big Mule Deer. Sierra's soft point Game Kings are more fragile and serve better out past 200 yards. Of course your mileage may vary, as they say.

I've long been a proponent of using tougher bullets up close and more accurate, more fragile (or frangible) projectiles at a distance where they perform the best terminally. Years ago I stumbled upon the writings of Nathan Foster. The amount of game-hunting experience he has is truly unparalleled. He also recommends "dual loading" by using tough bullets up close at high impact velocities and more accurate bullets at distance which will create much better wounding and quicker kills. I highly recommend his books. Finding a tough bullet (bonded, mono or otherwise) that shoots to the same point of impact at 200 yards as your longer-range bullets is not difficult. There are so many good options to select from now.

Best of luck to you on your future hunts. May you have many more years ahead, keeping the family freezer full of healthy game meat!

Thank you Brad. That was very kind. I've had the pleasure of deer hunting in Nevada 5 times. The last time was 2016 in area 231. Awesome area near Pioche.
My factory Rem 700 300 RUM at the time loved Barnes 180 TSX and TTSX. With 99.0 grs. Retumbo , 3 shots at 100 yds. was 3/8 in.. It was my mountain rifle. I like a dummy put a 28 in. Bartlien varmint contour 5R barrel on it. I don't know why I didn't go carbon fiber. It went from a ten pound rifle with Luepold VX6 4x24x52 scope, rings and mounts to 13.5 pds. I thought about spiral fluting the barrel but I figured would only save 6 to 8 ounces. I did on an MGM 1 in. full bull 27 in. Encore barrel. It cut 6 ounces off. The 300 Rum now loves 215 Bergers but have only tested them and 180 Hammers in It. My CDS dial is set up for the Berger load. I have a Cooper mod. 52 in 6.5x284 that I rarely shoot. Last time was 2020 on a lope doe and whitetail doe. I didn't even have a load worked up for it yet. I shot the whitetail with a factory Norma 156 Oryx and the lope doe with a factory HSM 140 Berger VLD. I hit shoulder at 213 yards an it blew up. I had to toss that front leg. The Oryx performed well but was only about 100 yds.. I've used Accubonds in 300 RUM, 300 WM and 7 Rem Mag with good results. I have some 6.5 150 gr. Accubonds I want to try in 6.5 PRC, 6.5X284 and maybe 6.5 Creed . They may be the Long Range. I can't remember. I've whacked some deer and lope with 124 Hammers but my CDS dial on it is for 156 Berger load. The Hammer hits same spot at 200 yds. though. I've taken with 180 Hammer in 300 WM so far, 2 cow elk, 2 good size muley bucks, a nice whitetail buck and some does. Worked perfectly everything. None were over 250 yds. I haven't read any Nathan Foster books sorry to say. I used to use Sierras when I was young. Been a looong time. Only on deer though. Last year I had great accuracy and performance with a 257 Weatherby and 100 gr. TTSX. great groups at 3632 fps. The 101 LRX was almost as accurate. I give away at least half the meat every year.
Thank you for the kind words and I hope you are successful in your future hunts. If you ever decide to hunt Wyoming again put in for non res Region F for deer. 81, 82 or 77 lope. 56, 59, 54 or 51 elk tag.
Take care brother.

 

[fordy]

Gday outdrmn please give me a little grace on the following as I'm having a break from glassing on my hunting property & the following is off my memory so I'll most likely get some wrong as my memory isn't what it once was

First off, your 2 cents worth are way more valuable than than mine

It took me a couple reads through your original response to get the main point (I hope idid)
Lack of penetration was what I came away with, not about what the label of the pill was. I hope to be teachable as I enter my fossil years and appreciate your thorough analysis. I use my 300wm primarily for elk, and thought with this opportunity i wanted see how my 7mm-08 and this bullet would perform. I get your point of Murphy showing up at some point with this combo so because of you fordy I'll be thinking from now on "what would fordy do"??? Might make a good T shirt! Again I hope to be teachable but to help me out please don't use big words

Yep you've got it & sorry I don't know how to write properly that explains in a simple laid out format for people to understand , my lingo is hard just ask me

I'm also patient & just go about showing actual results . You sir have picked it up quicker than a bloke who I chat to on a very regular basis these days & will personally get to shake his hand in a couple weeks

We danced around the subject for around 6months before he said one word that we use now that is extremely valuable for our discussions as we are on the same page when we talk now that was probably around 4 years ago

It's not my way or his way it was the way we both understood the baseline & then move forward to get better results

& that leads into your what would fordy do lol
I await my tshirt that's a classic & funny thankyou

I like the 30 cal idea as opens up more options & gives us more insurance or do I dare say put a Band-Aid on things
this is also a broad statement as last year we took critters to around 1600lb with the 6.5 & surprising how effective it was but hunting buff or like ( not testing) give me my 375 h&h or RUM but the problem solver is the 500 Jeffery but man I love 375 cal even on rabbits


The 7-08 I have one of those but no elk history but I'll use our samba , scrubbies ( feral cattle ) & horses basically critters in the 500-800 lb mark as 1000 lb plus critter things change & narrows one's options quite a lot imo
So that leaves us up the 175/180 gr
( I don't know a lot of the weights these days on frangible but any match king I've used are extremely erratic & I'd advise against any as those pills although I've only shot around 1/2 dozen types of MK I've had way to many train wrecks & open tip did nothing anneal did nothing it's a real poor game pill imo ) the style like the frangible pills these will hold enough velocity for some distance above these weights if one was to use a bigger pill I'd advise not to go with what they recommend on twist rate I'd be a minimum of one faster ( this is regardless of caliber or style /brand )

Velocity impacts below 2000 you see time to tip increase a fair bit
The old amax I used for a longtime over many critters but mainly 30 cal and showed the need for weight once critter size increases like I've been putting up in my previous posts but imo the best low velocity pill that I've seen & nothing yet that matches them ( between 1200/ 1400 I don't like @ all 1400 /1600 limit shot angle possibilities & main boiler room behind shoulder gave best results to me
1600 /1800 you see better results & basically the minimum I'd take in a pinch but 2000 things got way better 2200/2600 was the sweet spot & now your talking as long as you've got the weight behind it
& the 7-08 you really can't get it high enough but try & stay off big bone ( especially knuckle )
Bergers I'll stay clear of in 7mm as no history with them but on the fairly good numbers I had with the 30 cal if you go that way I would advise highly to open / clean those hp but sometime back I asked on if people still did that & I got the reply no need as the hp cavity crushes & works that way
I'll stay clear of that as I don't know & need testing as to me @ low impacts I think you will get erratic results
The ATip I've got no idea & recently due to a lovely gentleman sending me a pm ( first good data I've seen on this pill terminally of how it is working ) I now have a base to work off & I would advise caution on that pill
various others I've used but more suited to sub 300lb critters & got one aussie frangible to test for my mate along with that ATip so that's as much information I have on this line so far

The next line to consider is the bonded
& these I'd be happier to drop back to the 150/160 weight & I've only used the 140 accubond that was found to be somewhat wanting a bit more like your 162eldm so assume the 150/160 would be a nice fit

I loved the 150 gr partition on the limited medium critters I took with it ( or my boys as they graduated upto the rums & the 7-08 kinda put on the back burner somewhat & results are more consistent with the 30 cal )
Stay clear of the 140 gr partition , heavier partition I'd like to know but no use with them but if the real heavy once again a extra twist I would recommend

Rhino bullets make a few that kinda work like the tbbc only limited data on those in 7mm but the 150 working better than 140 & no use of the tbbc in 7mm so comparing across calibers has downfalls so be interesting to test

Mushroom monos
Stay clear of the 160 tsx in the 7-08 as it is erratic , one time it will give great penertration next shallow this was replicated on 40 something kills in 2 batches so I never got to the bottom of it of why ( I assume twist although it should be stable according to what we are told ) but I don't like erratic yet here's my sons samba ( it's not a big samba but I'm so proud of that hunt with my son & why it's mounted I'm not a score hunter I'm a memory hunter ) & recovered pill with the 160 only made 10.5 inches & pill was stuck in the neck /shoulder vertebrae & was tumbling in a arc @ around the 4 inch mark till it stopped in the vertebrae ( not straight line so we got lucky ) yet so called perfect mushroom ( meplat is critical here & a pattern I've seen on mushroom overall 1 or 2 expanded caliber means squat it's the shape ) hence the extra twist once again as my recommendation impact was 2400 ish

& went to the 150 tsx with the 140ttsx producing the most consistent results out of those 3

Now a fair few other mushroom monos on the market today but the only other 7mm one I used was the etip which I'd stay clear of that but only a box of those & maybe 10 kills in 7mm & more with 30 cal

The shedding mono I've had no medium crittrrs in 7mm on those on those size critters & I'll refrain from recommending any of those ( I will be labeled most likely anyway )& I'll say do your research on these & this in the mono world has proven to be the most consistent but a balanced pill like with all of the above is the first part we need to look @ & you can go a touch lighter than the mushroom mono or even same weight doesn't worry me but less weight than c&c
A couple different styles of shedding some shed petals sideways real quick some follow the shank & some follow for a bit then radiate outwards meplat of shank is important
I personally like petals to follow the shank as the wide ones are great for broadside you start getting angles involved & then performance drops off

Velocity wise the shedding operates @ a lower good working velocity impact & on average 300 fps lower than the mushroom
Personally I don't like below 2000/2100 or a mushroom 2300/2400 ( that's broad as ea pill behaves differently even within the same company ) yes they will kill but I like to get it done with more consistency hence bandaids & today I very rarely get down that low of impacts & my impact to tip has improved

The above has left out mechanical broadhead situations occurring, nose over , snapped / bent tips , plugged hp , caliber to length ratio etc
As that is a whole new chapter on what pills need to avoid to become efficient /consistent
Nothing is immune but some are definitely better than others

Well that's my siesta time gone got a nudge from the kids I teach we better go get set up before the deer start moving for the arvo

Using the 6.5 for fallow deer for them & not a target bullet nor a hunting bullet as once we get this pill in enough critters I'll then know if it's a good or bad bullet for the task ahead

That's how a bullet to me needs to be assessed not on it's naming

Hope that helps
Cheers

 

[204_ruger]

Does it need too be 180 gr eld m? Or would the 162 gr eld m work

 

[fordy]

Gday 204 ruger

Does it need to be 180 gr eld m? Or would the 162 gr eld m work

Both will work well as we have seen till they don't

The 180 will most likely hold Murphy @ arms length a lot longer than the 162

If I had those 2 pills to choose from I'd take the 180 even though I've not used it I just think it offers more insurance
As long as my twist is correct

Jm2cw
Cheers

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Does it need too be 180 gr eld m? Or would the 162 gr eld m work

If it's deer size game either will do just fine.

 

[SteveBurton]

I've followed this thread with much amusement. It seems to be dying down so I'm going to stir the pot some with this podcast. I'm actually surprised that no one has posted it before this. It's a long podcast but there are a lot of truth nuggets inside.


Shoot2Hunt : Bullet Ballistics: A Hunters Guide

 

[TucsonFX4]

I've followed this thread with much amusement. It seems to be dying down so I'm going to stir the pot some with this podcast. I'm actually surprised that no one has posted it before this. It's a long podcast but there are a lot of truth nuggets inside.


Shoot2Hunt : Bullet Ballistics: A Hunters Guide

I gained a good bit of knowledge from listening to that podcast a little while back. It's worth the time, in my opinion, even if not all of it applies to your bullet desires.

 

[Grizzly60]

I stopped watching when he started putting down on mono pills. They make a pretty (as he called it) mushroom or they shed pettles (which he didn't mention, or I didn't get that far) but they are very effective

This old post is getting new life

 

[anwahs]

I stopped watching when he started putting down on mono pills. They make a pretty (as he called it) mushroom or they shed pettles (which he didn't mention, or I didn't get that far) but they are very effective

This old post is getting new life

I didn't agree with many of the issues he brings up, especially when he said he has never seen a heavy for caliber bullet blow up (or splash) and not penetrate the chest cavity of an animal. I shot a deer at very close range with a 338 RUM using a 250 Sierra gameking going 3030 fps and also a spike elk at about 75 yards. The deer and the elk went down immediately. The deer stayed down but the elk got back up and had to shoot it again. When I got to it, it was still alive and finished it off with a 45 caliber revolver. All 3 shots failed to penetrate the chest cavity. It was very apparent the bullet was not designed to handle the speed and just created what many refer to as a splash on the outside.

 

[WYO300RUM]

I didn't agree with many of the issues he brings up, especially when he said he has never seen a heavy for caliber bullet blow up (or splash) and not penetrate the chest cavity of an animal. I shot a deer at very close range with a 338 RUM using a 250 Sierra gameking going 3030 fps and also a spike elk at about 75 yards. The deer and the elk went down immediately. The deer stayed down but the elk got back up and had to shoot it again. When I got to it, it was still alive and finished it off with a 45 caliber revolver. All 3 shots failed to penetrate the chest cavity. It was very apparent the bullet was not designed to handle the speed and just created what many refer to as a splash on the outside.

Looks like you hit him with Javelin anti tank missle !
I haven't used a Sierra on game for 40 years. And then only on deer. I just kept trying different bullet makers and types. The old Hornady SST was another grenade in 7 mag and 300 Rum. Close range was a mess maker. After mid 90's I started using Nosler, Barnes , Swift to name a few. No more meat wasting . I like Berger, ELDX, etc. But not on bone. I always aim shoulder on elk. DRT.

 

[cabelasken]

I gained a good bit of knowledge from listening to that podcast a little while back. It's worth the time, in my opinion, even if not all of it applies to your bullet desires.

The video explains pretty accurately what I've found with monos - or Barnes bullets and their performance on game is exactly what I've come to expect. Also, they explain more thoroughly the wound channel that occurs with them on game if struck with sufficient velocity. Also, within my minimum limit of 2250 to 2300 impact velocity or range limit of 450 to 500 yds. I've always wanted enough, but not too much tissue damage as to recover as much venison and elk meat as I can. As the video points out, this is a delicate balance. For my purposes tho, the monos have been my preference for over 20 years. Currently however, I've taken a few animals with various Hammer bullets and so far they have performed extremely well. Given some more opportunities, I will continue to test and compare and advise friends that I load for.

 

[IH784]

A 180 eldm has no business being shot at an animal you unethical sons of guns!! Oh wait…never mind. View attachment 410569

Depends on what you're hunting? Probably fine for a prairie dog?

 

[Grizzly60]

I didn't agree with many of the issues he brings up, especially when he said he has never seen a heavy for caliber bullet blow up (or splash) and not penetrate the chest cavity of an animal. I shot a deer at very close range with a 338 RUM using a 250 Sierra gameking going 3030 fps and also a spike elk at about 75 yards. The deer and the elk went down immediately. The deer stayed down but the elk got back up and had to shoot it again. When I got to it, it was still alive and finished it off with a 45 caliber revolver. All 3 shots failed to penetrate the chest cavity. It was very apparent the bullet was not designed to handle the speed and just created what many refer to as a splash on the outside.

Wow, that looks nasty. You lost a lot of backstrap. That party mushroom would of dropped it right there without all that nasty. And a lot of good backstrap.

 

[204_ruger]

I wanted to try some in my 7mm mag. But i dont think the the twist is right. I am fixing to buy a 280AI. If i buy the browning xbolt 280AI. It has a 1@8. I may just try 162 gr . I live in the south. Our deer isnt the size of them in the northern states.