TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

[Mike6158]

<edit> Good lord I do ramble on...

Kind of related but not really until you get to the bottom. I've been testing a Barnes .338 Lapua 280gr LRX BT in <drum roll please> the much maligned, hated, loved, sometimes hated and loved at the same time... 8.6BLK. Not SAMMI approved. About as wildcat as you can get with it's 3 twist barrels. I have two of the early Faxon barrels, This isn't a barrel discussion so I won't talk about how much I despise those barrels That's kind of like not saying I don't like them right? Kudos to them for one thing, they were the only people making them at one time.

I can get it to shoot subs and have hunting accuracy at 100 yards easily. The quest for accuracy with supers at 300 has been an exercise in sneaking up on the desired velocity without serious over pressure signs. Desired velocity is was 2,200 fps and I can get there easily enough. I was trying to stretch to 2,800 fps and it's not going to happen in a 16" pencil barrel without "sploding" something. Due, in part, to the inadequacies of the barrel I've shelved this part of the testing at this point. I may buy an aftermarket heavy barrel and test more. Idk right now.

Back on point: The most important statistic that I need to know before I use this bullet in a subsonic, relatively close range, situation is: <how about another one of those drum rolls. The first one sounded real nice>

Terminal Ballistics. What is the bullet going to do when it enters a pig (test subject) at 1,077-1,020 fps, spinning like a ? Idk... what else spins at 500,000 rpm? There's only one way (for me) to find out. Choot'em.

Quick stats on the 8.6BLK 280gr subs.
1,100 fps muzzle velocity goal. Easily doable.
50 yards: 1,077fps, 722fpe
100 yards: 1,057fps, 694fpe
150 yards: 1,037 fps, 669fpe
200 yards: 1,020fps, 647fpe

Hornady is supposed to be working on another one of those "cutting edge" ARC bullets in 8.6 with a 6 to 6.5 twist. That one will have a better chance of SAMMI approving it and bullet selection will be easier. With the 3 twist you need to use bonded or solid copper to avoid a "RUD" event. <-- rocketry term... Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly of the projectile.

Why dck with a wildcat like the 8.6? Not because it's easy. Reminds me of a long ago speech that I'm not going to post...

 

[FireFlyFishing]

<edit> Good lord I do ramble on...

Kind of related but not really until you get to the bottom. I've been testing a Barnes .338 Lapua 280gr LRX BT in <drum roll please> the much maligned, hated, loved, sometimes hated and loved at the same time... 8.6BLK. Not SAMMI approved. About as wildcat as you can get with it's 3 twist barrels. I have two of the early Faxon barrels, This isn't a barrel discussion so I won't talk about how much I despise those barrels That's kind of like not saying I don't like them right? Kudos to them for one thing, they were the only people making them at one time.

I can get it to shoot subs and have hunting accuracy at 100 yards easily. The quest for accuracy with supers at 300 has been an exercise in sneaking up on the desired velocity without serious over pressure signs. Desired velocity is was 2,200 fps and I can get there easily enough. I was trying to stretch to 2,800 fps and it's not going to happen in a 16" pencil barrel without "sploding" something. Due, in part, to the inadequacies of the barrel I've shelved this part of the testing at this point. I may buy an aftermarket heavy barrel and test more. Idk right now.

Back on point: The most important statistic that I need to know before I use this bullet in a subsonic, relatively close range, situation is: <how about another one of those drum rolls. The first one sounded real nice>

Terminal Ballistics. What is the bullet going to do when it enters a pig (test subject) at 1,077-1,020 fps, spinning like a ? Idk... what else spins at 500,000 rpm? There's only one way (for me) to find out. Choot'em.

Quick stats on the 8.6BLK 280gr subs.
1,100 fps muzzle velocity goal. Easily doable.
50 yards: 1,077fps, 722fpe
100 yards: 1,057fps, 694fpe
150 yards: 1,037 fps, 669fpe
200 yards: 1,020fps, 647fpe

Hornady is supposed to be working on another one of those "cutting edge" ARC bullets in 8.6 with a 6 to 6.5 twist. That one will have a better chance of SAMMI approving it and bullet selection will be easier. With the 3 twist you need to use bonded or solid copper to avoid a "RUD" event. <-- rocketry term... Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly of the projectile.

Why dck with a wildcat like the 8.6? Not because it's easy. Reminds me of a long ago speech that I'm not going to post...

I'm watching that caliber with interest. Admittedly, I want others to figure it out before I take the plunge and buy a new rifle and suppressor just for that caliber.

So I'm living vicariously through you, my friend.

 

[Mike6158]

I'm watching that caliber with interest. Admittedly, I want others to figure it out before I take the plunge and buy a new rifle and suppressor just for that caliber.

So I'm living vicariously through you, my friend.

With any luck I'll be able to con... I mean talk my son-in-law into shooting a hog with the subsonics I'm about to load. I'd do it but my day job and very long commute makes it hard to get out at night. He likes his AR's short and light and is currently shooting a lot of 6.8SPC. Since I'm the guy loading his 6.8's for him I may have some leverage I'm stepping away from supers in the AR. I think that's a bolt gun round and it would probably do better with a 6 twist. Note: I've stepped away and keep coming back so that story might not be over yet either.

It's kind of like the 300BLK. Folks either lovem or hatem.

 

[FireFlyFishing]

With any luck I'll be able to con... I mean talk my son-in-law into shooting a hog with the subsonics I'm about to load. I'd do it but my day job and very long commute makes it hard to get out at night. He likes his AR's short and light and is currently shooting a lot of 6.8SPC. Since I'm the guy loading his 6.8's for him I may have some leverage I'm stepping away from supers in the AR. I think that's a bolt gun round and it would probably do better with a 6 twist. Note: I've stepped away and keep coming back so that story might not be over yet either.

It's kind of like the 300BLK. Folks either lovem or hatem.

I have a 300 BO and like it. I have it loaded with 110 Barnes in a super load. I just got a suppressor…so, sub time!

 

[memtb]

FireFlyFishing I'm gonna meddle in your business, please forgive.

With the velocities that you're getting and wanting to stay with a standard scope, you could easily do a 300 yard zero. Which can easily give you a 400 yard rifle with minimal hold above desired impact point. Just guess'n that you'll be about 8 or 9 low at 400. I've done that for many years and it's worked quite well.

IMO, the only real negative with that zero is that it's easy to overshoot small game (Fox, Coyotes, Jacks) inside of 200. But, I suspect that those small critters aren't your primary quarry.

Again, without "crunching" numbers, your trajectory peak will be somewhere around 170 yards @ around 4 to 4 1/2". You merely have to remember to hold a bit low on the small stuff at those ranges. Once ya get used to it…..it becomes second nature!

Just my thoughts! memtb

 

[memtb]

FireFlyFishing I quickly threw this together, "guesstimating" some values. It seems that the low BC is really hurt'n you @ 400…..also a bit higher than mid-range than my guess. It's quite a bit lower than I estimated. Still doable, but more difficult!

I guess that this BC thing ……really is pretty important! memtb

 

[FireFlyFishing]

With the velocities that you're getting and wanting to stay with a standard scope, you could easily do a 300 yard zero. Which can easily give you a 400 yard rifle with minimal hold above desired impact point. Just guess'n that you'll be about 8 or 9 low at 400. I've done that for many years and it's worked quite well.

I'm not set on anything right now. I'll keep crunching the numbers and see what is the best compromise. Thanks for the suggestion @memtb!

IMO, the only real negative with that zero is that it's easy to overshoot small game (Fox, Coyotes, Jacks) inside of 200. But, I suspect that those small critters aren't your primary quarry.

Correct. Big game gun.

FireFlyFishing I quickly threw this together, "guesstimating" some values. It seems that the low BC is really hurt'n you @ 400. It's quite a bit lower than I estimated. Still doable, but more difficult! memtb

It is kind of a brick, haha. I don't care though as most game I've taken is well under 300 yards. If I don't like the Barnes, I'm considering these next:

Really pricey though…

 

[memtb]

I'm not set on anything right now. I'll keep crunching the numbers and see what is the best compromise. Thanks for the suggestion @memtb!

Correct. Big game gun.

It is kind of a brick, haha. I don't care though as most game I've taken is well under 300 yards. If I don't like the Barnes, I'm considering these next:
View attachment 552426

Really pricey though…

That looks like quite the bullet! And…..I see that they offer a "payment plan"! memtb

 

[Mike6158]

$95.99 for 50. I'd pray for the Barnes to work well

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

It's kind of like the 300BLK. Folks either lovem or hahatem.

I absolutely love my 2. 300BO's. 1 is setup for Home defense and tge other is a woods gun with 16" barrel.
All I shoot are supers. Love this round

 

[Mike6158]

I just swapped the barrel on my Ruger Ranch in .300 BLK for a little faster twist (6) and added length. I pulled the extractor out of the bolt before I had a chance to shoot it and all I can say is don't do that. I think I've figured out how to push the ball and detent spring down while installing the extractor but I'll need to be in the right mood to attempt it.

I was checking shoulder setback and the bolt is supposed to be clean so nothing interferes with it falling. The process is size a fired case, setting the shoulder back .001", check to see if the bolt closes without resistance. Rinse, repeat, increasing the setback, write the number, down and lock the die down. I'm going back to setting it back .003" and calling good.

 

[TheDuckMaster]

Stop right there, bullet impact not only is how much physical impact the bullet does, but how much "hydrostatic shock," is apparent to the tissue. Does not matter "light and fast" vs. "slow and heavy" Hollow point or FMJ.

There is War studies that have proven unquestionably that "hydrostatic shock" can produce remote neural damage and rapid incapacitation.

In WWII a trauma surgeron Frank Chamberlin, noted waves apparent in tissues. He also noted hydrostatic shock, as the bullet traveled. This shock is of course the movement of liquid being displaced by bullet mass not necessarily bullet construction. Mass is mass no matter what it looks like period.

In fact pressure waves were measure in Sweden when a EEG probes were hooked up to a pigs brain and that pig was shot in the hip. Results confirmed bullet waves indeed affected neurological brain impulses and were later confirmed by a Japanese study.

The brain is not the only thing that is affected by remote hydraulic pressure waves. The spine and organ are also effected. There is a reason people wearing Kevlar vest collapse after being shot at close range by a pistol. The mass of the pistol creates Hydrostatic shock to the spine especially the thoracic spine. The effects of the spinal Myelin, which moves proteins and electrical conductivit simply gets disrupted. Yet no bullet entered the body.

This article is spreading a myth IMHO

 

[Brad Norman]

I have a memory on a bull elk shot that you stirred up. Before the up and down canyons that day I was broken up from quad wreck and thrown from horse before this happened. The third up and down different canyons after bull finally came back out after just saddling up ready to leave. Got down to bottom. Gave range finder to buddy. Laid down on cactus. He said 543. I had my trusty factory Rem. 300 RUM . Awesome load with 180 TTSX. I figured 28 to max 30 in. drop. I knew how big a bull's shoulder to chest is. I held on hair and air on shoulder. Boom. He ran about 15 yards and turned around facing opposite way. I didn't know it but he was dead already. I saw still standing. Held same. Boom. Went down. Was like 15 seconds for both shots. When we got up to him I saw bullet busted through the left elbow of front leg into chest. Rolled him over and his right elbow was shot through into to chest. Buddy said dam ! You could put a rod straight though ! He had two bullet holes in his heart about 2 in. apart. I said that will never happen again. Cut up next day. Came in with pack horses. Was happy no griz or wolves got to him. Barnes TTX and TTSX are bone busting SOB's. Experienced same on other Elk and deer. Hammers kill quick also. Penitrait good but 4 pedals brake off and go wherever to cause damage. I've only found a few Barmes at longer ranges on off side next to hide. All but one the four pedals peeled back to double diameter and cut. Never had one animal with either go a few steps. I don't need a target bullet because I don't take shots over 600 yds. That's long range for me. Maybe there can be a short range forum for us short range old timers. I just never had the inclination to practice or shoot longe range. I've been a bowhunter since 16 years old. I always considered antelope hunting like bowhunting with a rifle. If you know what I mean. It's fun to try to get closer to their many eyes.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Sir! I hope you've healed up fully from your falls. Hunting can be treacherous at times! I see you're in N/W Wyoming. I had an Uncle who lived in the N/E corner, in Moorcroft. I love Wyoming.

I too like to get closer, when possible. Shot placement is the key. Being closer makes that much easier, especially in a field position and in uncertain environmental conditions. The steep wide-open valley where we found my Son's spike contained 65 Elk, and several were good spikes. As we snuck over the ridge, laid in a snow bank and glassed the herd, we found they were spread throughout the valley. Trying to work our way closer to the big spike he wanted would have spooked the cows near to us, and blown the hunt. I built my Son's rifle, along with a local gunsmith / suppressor maker, and that darned 6.5-284 cartridge sure is accurate with my handloads. As I mentioned, we enjoy stretching out our practice sessions and have good reliable dope out to 1200 yards. Still, 702 yards is a long shot on a big tough animal such as an Elk. They can be tough to kill quickly. The ELD-M has always performed great for us in 6.5mm.

Your impressive experiences with the terminal performance of Hammers and Barnes bullets does not surprise me. It's incredible how much destruction a rifle bullet creates. I haven't used the TSX-style bullets in our rifles, but only because I've not had them shoot accurately. I tried several options with various powders and, for whatever reason, I couldn't get them to shoot well at all. I know many many folks have had success, so I'll never discredit them. For close hunting shots I have had wonderful results with bonded bullets (e.g. AccuBonds, Norma Oryx and Lapua Mega) and I don't know that there's anything better than a Nosler Partition. I have also had surprisingly good experience with Sierra Game King hollow points in 6mm and .308 caliber. You'd think a hollow point would "open up" faster and fragment but these must have tougher jackets. They create a good wound channel and punch through. I've never recovered one, and they blow a golf-ball sized (or larger) hole through big Mule Deer. Sierra's soft point Game Kings are more fragile and serve better out past 200 yards. Of course your mileage may vary, as they say.

I've long been a proponent of using tougher bullets up close and more accurate, more fragile (or frangible) projectiles at a distance where they perform the best terminally. Years ago I stumbled upon the writings of Nathan Foster. The amount of game-hunting experience he has is truly unparalleled. He also recommends "dual loading" by using tough bullets up close at high impact velocities and more accurate bullets at distance which will create much better wounding and quicker kills. I highly recommend his books. Finding a tough bullet (bonded, mono or otherwise) that shoots to the same point of impact at 200 yards as your longer-range bullets is not difficult. There are so many good options to select from now.

Best of luck to you on your future hunts. May you have many more years ahead, keeping the family freezer full of healthy game meat!

 

[cabelasken]

Thanks for sharing your experiences Sir! I hope you've healed up fully from your falls. Hunting can be treacherous at times! I see you're in N/W Wyoming. I had an Uncle who lived in the N/E corner, in Moorcroft. I love Wyoming.

I too like to get closer, when possible. Shot placement is the key. Being closer makes that much easier, especially in a field position and in uncertain environmental conditions. The steep wide-open valley where we found my Son's spike contained 65 Elk, and several were good spikes. As we snuck over the ridge, laid in a snow bank and glassed the herd, we found they were spread throughout the valley. Trying to work our way closer to the big spike he wanted would have spooked the cows near to us, and blown the hunt. I built my Son's rifle, along with a local gunsmith / suppressor maker, and that darned 6.5-284 cartridge sure is accurate with my handloads. As I mentioned, we enjoy stretching out our practice sessions and have good reliable dope out to 1200 yards. Still, 702 yards is a long shot on a big tough animal such as an Elk. They can be tough to kill quickly. The ELD-M has always performed great for us in 6.5mm.

Your impressive experiences with the terminal performance of Hammers and Barnes bullets does not surprise me. It's incredible how much destruction a rifle bullet creates. I haven't used the TSX-style bullets in our rifles, but only because I've not had them shoot accurately. I tried several options with various powders and, for whatever reason, I couldn't get them to shoot well at all. I know many many folks have had success, so I'll never discredit them. For close hunting shots I have had wonderful results with bonded bullets (e.g. AccuBonds, Norma Oryx and Lapua Mega) and I don't know that there's anything better than a Nosler Partition. I have also had surprisingly good experience with Sierra Game King hollow points in 6mm and .308 caliber. You'd think a hollow point would "open up" faster and fragment but these must have tougher jackets. They create a good wound channel and punch through. I've never recovered one, and they blow a golf-ball sized (or larger) hole through big Mule Deer. Sierra's soft point Game Kings are more fragile and serve better out past 200 yards. Of course your mileage may vary, as they say.

I've long been a proponent of using tougher bullets up close and more accurate, more fragile (or frangible) projectiles at a distance where they perform the best terminally. Years ago I stumbled upon the writings of Nathan Foster. The amount of game-hunting experience he has is truly unparalleled. He also recommends "dual loading" by using tough bullets up close at high impact velocities and more accurate bullets at distance which will create much better wounding and quicker kills. I highly recommend his books. Finding a tough bullet (bonded, mono or otherwise) that shoots to the same point of impact at 200 yards as your longer-range bullets is not difficult. There are so many good options to select from now.

Best of luck to you on your future hunts. May you have many more years ahead, keeping the family freezer full of healthy game meat!

I've often thought about carrying two clips with bullets of different styles for different ranges, but nowadays I don't shoot past about 450 yds so the bullets I use are fine up to about 500 -600 yds where the velocity is still above 2000 FPS