Spreadsheet to determine best long range hunting cartridge

[Idaho Lefty]

@Greyfox ,..
Very well said ! Put a "good" expanding Bullet that, "Mushroom's" with, a descent amount of, MOMENTUM through, the Heart/ Lung area = DEAD,.. Elk !
"Rocket Science", to some people, tho !! .. DUH !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FIGJAM]

This is not F-Class or Bench Rest shooting that is the sort of nonsense infecting real hunting. the BC of a hunting bullet should be the last thing you consider not the first thing. The most important factor about a bullet that no one on this sights seem to mention is penetration and expansion at the velocity you expect the cartridge to have at the distance you intend to shoot the animal at. The bigest problem with long range hunters is their ignorance to bullet construction from the stand point of producing a quick merciful kill. They spend far too much time looking at numbers that are almost meaningless to hunting. They ignore the single most important detail about a cartridge and bullet combo which is how it behaves on impact with structure on large game. I can almost guarantee that 99% of the hunters on this sight are shooting the worst possible bullets at large game because they worry to much about drop and wind drift and not enough about the construction of the bullet as it applies to on target performance. People on this sight act as if getting the bullet to the animal is the end of bullet performance and hunting but really that is just the beginning. Boat tails bad, VLD's bad, thin jackets bad, hollow points with thin jackets the worst!

This might not be the website or forum for you bud. This is a long range hunting website - the name of the game is finding that balance between BCs and performance for clean, ethical kills. BTW - thin jacks allow a bullet to expand properly at lower velocities which you need when you get out there a ways. The trade off is those can explode at high velocities. Nothing is perfect, that is why we have tons of options to pick the right platform for our style of hunting.

 

[FIGJAM]

They may possess the skills to make the shot, however, unless their name is Jesus Christ, what they don't posess are the skills to control the uncontrollable. There's so many unforseeable things that could go wrong with shooting at wild game at that distance, that saying that distance is an ethical shot is pure B.S.
Lucky, maybe. Ethical, no way in hades.

There are other websites that might share your sentiments...not sure what you were expecting on this site. This will be a tough place for you if you feel that way. Lots of guys making good ethical long range kills at a 1000 yards on this site - many that have the skill set to do it. I would argue that unforseeable things happen at any distance, even archery hunting i.e. that pesky branch you didn't see that sends the arrow into an elks guts instead of the vitals at 30 yards.

 

[Newbweatherby]

This formula is based on John Taylor's Knock Out Values that were developed to correlate to a cartridges ability to knock out an elephant with a head/brain shot at close range(approx 10-20 yards) with a "solid" bullet. This method, much like using just energy/velocity is good for general comparisons, but does no take into account the bullets expansion characteristics, an important consideration particularly with the 30 cal and under cartridges when used on thin skinned game(deer, elk, etc). A 450 Nitro Express capable of knocking an elephant out with a solid, could easily get the hunter killed if the same cartridge/bullet instead of an expanding soft point was used on a 500 pound lion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

You know if I look at some of my magazines I have saved since the 90'si remember seen the original article ,I think I still have I'll look later but also brought other variables such as sectional density.

 

[fonzy702]

If you can get me some comparable velocity, bullet weight, and bc data from a 24 inch or similar rifle, I would be happy to add 6.5x284 to the sheet

With 24" barreled rifles I think that velocity with 143 grain ELD-X would realistically be 2,850-2,900 fps. With a 26" barrel I have seen 2,950-3,025 fps. I have loaded 140 Berger VLD to 3,000-,3050 with 26" barrel. I haven't shot any ABLR's in them, but data that I've seen show them to shoot similar to the ELD-x.

 

[Hand Skills]

This formula is based on John Taylor's Knock Out Values that were developed to correlate to a cartridges ability to knock out an elephant with a head/brain shot at close range(approx 10-20 yards) with a "solid" bullet. This method, much like using just energy/velocity is good for general comparisons, but does no take into account the bullets expansion characteristics, an important consideration particularly with the 30 cal and under cartridges when used on thin skinned game(deer, elk, etc). A 450 Nitro Express capable of knocking an elephant out with a solid, could easily get the hunter killed if the same cartridge/bullet instead of an expanding soft point was used on a 500 pound lion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

I'm with you

This formula is based on John Taylor's Knock Out Values that were developed to correlate to a cartridges ability to knock out an elephant with a head/brain shot at close range(approx 10-20 yards) with a "solid" bullet. This method, much like using just energy/velocity is good for general comparisons, but does no take into account the bullets expansion characteristics, an important consideration particularly with the 30 cal and under cartridges when used on thin skinned game(deer, elk, etc). A 450 Nitro Express capable of knocking an elephant out with a solid, could easily get the hunter killed if the same cartridge/bullet instead of an expanding soft point was used on a 500 pound lion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

I'm pretty skeptical of 'killing power' metrics. As you handily pointed out, in the realm of expanding bullets which deform (change shape) on impact, sectional density is essentially meaningless.

I do however believe KPS is more representative than kinetic energy alone.
_____________________________


THE MOST IMPORTANT IMPLICATION: The larger diameter and/or heavier the bullet, the less downrange energy it needs to achieve a given KPS value

Realizing this implication of the killing power formula was a Eureka!moment. Understanding this implication quickly led me to conclude that I could use it to quantitatively compare the downrange performance of different sizes and weights of bullets, driven at different velocities.

The key to such comparisons is specifying a KPS value of interest. Suppose I wish to determine the energy level at which three different sizes and weights of hunting bullets would have a KPS value of 15.

I start by rearranging the KPS formula to read: E = KPS / (SD x F). Dividing the KPS value, 15, by the (SD x A) product of each of the three bullets specified below tells me the energy level at which each would generate a KPS of 15.

• .243 dia., 100 gr. (SD .242, A .0464) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 1337 ft. lbs.
• .277 dia., 130 gr. (SD .242, A .0603) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 1029 ft. lbs.
• .308 dia., 150 gr. (SD .226, A .0745) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 891 ft. lbs.

I can now determine and compare the ranges at which cartridges in these calibers and bullet weights get KPS values of 15. I will use Federal factory loads in .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester and .30-30 Winchester to illustrate. (The .243 and .270 loads use JSP spitzer bullets and the .30-30 load uses a RN bullet. MV values are for 24 inch barrels.

I used an online ballistics program to build a trajectory table for each load. I read down the energy column of the table to find the energy value that is closest to the target energy value I calculated above; then I read the yardage at which this energy value occurs.

Here are the results for the three loads: .243 Win., 100 gr. bullet = 195 yards; .270 Win., 130 gr. bullet = 510 yards (!); .30-30 Win., 150 gr. bullet = 215 yards.
________________

Source: https://www.chuckhawks.com/g-s_formula_implications.html

 

[packgoatguy]

You know if I look at some of my magazines I have saved since the 90'si remember seen the original article ,I think I still have I'll look later but also brought other variables such as sectional density.

Correct. Sectional Density, Energy, and the cross sectional area of the bullet are all included in the KPS calculation. Its not a perfect comparison, but does factor in a lot more about the performance capabilities of a bullet than just using "energy" alone.

 

[packgoatguy]

I'm with you


I'm pretty skeptical of 'killing power' metrics. As you handily pointed out, in the realm of expanding bullets which deform (change shape) on impact, sectional density is essentially meaningless.

I do however believe KPS is more representative than kinetic energy alone.
_____________________________


THE MOST IMPORTANT IMPLICATION: The larger diameter and/or heavier the bullet, the less downrange energy it needs to achieve a given KPS value

Realizing this implication of the killing power formula was a Eureka!moment. Understanding this implication quickly led me to conclude that I could use it to quantitatively compare the downrange performance of different sizes and weights of bullets, driven at different velocities.

The key to such comparisons is specifying a KPS value of interest. Suppose I wish to determine the energy level at which three different sizes and weights of hunting bullets would have a KPS value of 15.

I start by rearranging the KPS formula to read: E = KPS / (SD x F). Dividing the KPS value, 15, by the (SD x A) product of each of the three bullets specified below tells me the energy level at which each would generate a KPS of 15.

• .243 dia., 100 gr. (SD .242, A .0464) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 1337 ft. lbs.
• .277 dia., 130 gr. (SD .242, A .0603) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 1029 ft. lbs.
• .308 dia., 150 gr. (SD .226, A .0745) - Energy for KPS of 15 = 891 ft. lbs.

I can now determine and compare the ranges at which cartridges in these calibers and bullet weights get KPS values of 15. I will use Federal factory loads in .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester and .30-30 Winchester to illustrate. (The .243 and .270 loads use JSP spitzer bullets and the .30-30 load uses a RN bullet. MV values are for 24 inch barrels.

I used an online ballistics program to build a trajectory table for each load. I read down the energy column of the table to find the energy value that is closest to the target energy value I calculated above; then I read the yardage at which this energy value occurs.

Here are the results for the three loads: .243 Win., 100 gr. bullet = 195 yards; .270 Win., 130 gr. bullet = 510 yards (!); .30-30 Win., 150 gr. bullet = 215 yards.
________________

Source: https://www.chuckhawks.com/g-s_formula_implications.html

the KPS scale is merely one more tool that can be used to compare our many options when it comes to hunting calibers. It is most useful IMO when I compare the same "type" of bullets from different cartridges. For example, because the KPS score does not consider "bullet construction," then if I compare the KPS score of several different ELD-X bullets (presumably, all ELD-X bullets share the same bullet construction) then I can gauge and compare the difference in down range "wallop" between them.

 

[packgoatguy]

Is there enough info around to add the 300 PRC to the list?

if you can get me verifiable velocity data and a bullet BC and weight, I can add it to the list.

 

[packgoatguy]

For those of you who have done this: if you had identical rifle platforms, barrel lengths, and bullets, which could you reasonably push faster? the 7mmRUM or the 28 Nosler? Is there something about the 28 Nosler that makes it inherently more accurate than the RUM?

 

[highdrum]

I'm building a 338 rum to push 270eldx, 300 norma improved for 215 Berger, a 28 nosler to push 195s, and a 6.5 saum to push the 150smk. Ryan Pierce is building the 300 and 28, Hells Canyon doing the other two. Cannot wait, April will be a good month!

 

[Don A Parsons]

Funny that some people think that long range starts at a 1000 yards.

Some might say 200 yards well others are just getting their shoe laces wet at 1700,,, Ha.

I long shoot a 308 Winchester at thick skin and critters at distances that work for me. What I do at the shooting range has nothing to do with what I encounter in the wilds of America.

Lots of factors come into play in my shooting world ,,, other shooters have their safety zones that work for them.

Lots of heavy weight critters have been taken at some pretty long distances,,, that's not saying that the big bore units can't out perform alot of the small to mid size cases.

The name of the game has always been shot placement,,, a person can flatten a building out with a D-11 push cat,,, or with a simple small hand held axe if you know what main support beam to remove.

I picked the middle of the road in both categories to get the job done.

35 years ,,, nope,,, 45 years. Ha. Funny how my mind forgets many of the good times with simple things.

No numbers & math for me since the best of times happens out side the doors in the wilds.

Did I mention that the 303 British is the best. LOL

North of the 49th Don

 

[packgoatguy]

Updated Spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14PnmLqhqZcSH4Pkmrtd6AaAcUWl7eF_OBudSppY7144/edit?usp=sharing

 

[packgoatguy]

Added to the spreadsheet (scroll way down) a comparison of various rifle scopes by weight