Spreadsheet to determine best long range hunting cartridge

[packgoatguy]

One has to concede there a number of good cartridges available that are so close it doesn't matter much.

As far as the .300 Winchester not coming out "on top" doesn't matter as it's still the standard to be measured against. I currently don't have one.

These days I tend to choose more between, the optics, how a rifle fits, and feels for a task, then choose between cartridges it might be available in.

That may be a big consideration here: only some of these cartridge choices are available in factory rifle configurations from your "big box" style manufacturers. 7mm WSM might be an interesting round for someone making an "ultralight" mountain gun in a short action, but would be difficult to find a new one on the shelf at Cabelas...

However, I think if one does the "math" here, it might be surprising the difference in the max capabilities of the various bullet options. I for one was surprised at the edge that the heavy 7mm high BC bullets can have when compared to others. I for one love my little kimber mtn ascent in 6.5cm, but if I were looking at making a 1000 yard shot on a deer... its 55 inches of drift in a 10mph wind vs the 33-40 inches of drift in a 28 nosler or big 338 could make all the difference in the world. (not that I would necessarily take a 1000 yard shot in a 10mph wind at a deer...)

 

[HARPERC]

.....(not that I would necessarily take a 1000 yard shot in a 10mph wind at a deer...)....

I couldn't or wouldn't, and so I wouldn't choose a rifle based on that shot. Which is the point I was making.

 

[RCMSTER]

Why in the world would anybody take a shot at a deer from a thousand yards away, whether there's a 10 mph wind or 0 mph wind? That's just plain dumb. No other way to say it. Just plain dumb.

 

[wildcat455]

Why in the world would anybody take a shot at a deer from a thousand yards away, whether there's a 10 mph wind or 0 mph wind? That's just plain dumb. No other way to say it. Just plain dumb.

Some people posess the skill set and absolute confidence to do this and make ethical kills. If that's how they want to hunt then who am I to judge?

It's worse than "dumb" if someone who doesn't posess the skill set to make that shot, and takes it anyway.

I'll even go as far to say it's worse than "dumb" to take any shot at any range outside of the capabilities of the hunter, and his absolute confidence of a clean ethical kill, even if that range is 100 yards or less.

 

[RCMSTER]

Some people posess the skill set and absolute confidence to do this and make ethical kills. If that's how they want to hunt then who am I to judge?]

They may possess the skills to make the shot, however, unless their name is Jesus Christ, what they don't posess are the skills to control the uncontrollable. There's so many unforseeable things that could go wrong with shooting at wild game at that distance, that saying that distance is an ethical shot is pure B.S.
Lucky, maybe. Ethical, no way in hades.

 

[packgoatguy]

Why in the world would anybody take a shot at a deer from a thousand yards away, whether there's a 10 mph wind or 0 mph wind? That's just plain dumb. No other way to say it. Just plain dumb.

not really the point of the conversation here... not debating whether one should take a long shot on big game... but rather the theoretical capabilities of various rifle cartridges if one chose to do so. Dare I also mention that you are literally posting on a website called... da da da da... "long range hunting" which presumes hunting shots that are long range. How long range? that is a debate for another thread IMO.

However, if you want, I can make my above statement fit a 500 yard shot or a 250 yard shot just as well. When there are variables at play under real world hunting conditions, like temperature spreads, wind, and distance... then the higher BC bullets are going to have the advantage. They will be "less" affected downrange. The rifle and cartridge combo that can put that high BC bullet on target with the most consistent precision, will win in my book. At 500 yards, The difference of the effect of wind (on the chart) is 6 inches from the 28 nosler option vs the 7mm08 at the bottom. Even a 5 mph wind is going to be a 3 inch difference. If you add in the 5 inches of possible variability with a 1MOA rifle, that could mean the difference of up to 8 inches at 500... which on deer or elk size targets is the difference between a kill shot and a wounded animal. So the caliber that can cut those extra 3 inches off, or the rifle that can shoot half moa instead of 1moa, is going to bring that variability down to 2-4 inches (a margin of error that could be acceptable under the right conditions) and might mean the difference between taking a shot and not taking a shot. So... even at shorter ranges, the math here matters. Maybe the difference is insignificant once you get inside 250 yards... but this is not a website or a post to debate what is or isn't effective inside 250 yards... cause pretty much anything will get that job done.

 

[wildcat455]

They may possess the skills to make the shot, however, unless their name is Jesus Christ, what they don't posess are the skills to control the uncontrollable. There's so many unforseeable things that could go wrong with shooting at wild game at that distance, that saying that distance is an ethical shot is pure B.S.
Lucky, maybe. Ethical, no way in hades.

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.
I'll let this go and get back on track with the thread.

 

[jebel]

I do appreciate analysis like this, thanks for sharing. I also agree with much that has been said about trying to create a list that is meaningful to anyone but yourself.

I don't think there is such thing as a master spreadsheet to calculate the best long range cartridge for everyone.

For it to make any real sense, you have to instill some set of assumptions, as you've chosen to do in the types of loads and reference data you've used (which is fine). Others would do differently.

I did a similar spreadsheet and decided I would tackle the question of what velocity to assume by going to a well known bullet and/or powder company and averaging all the max velocities for the given caliber and bullet weight.

If you would use the loads or load data referenced here, then the results could have meaning for you. If you prefer temperature-stable powders (for example), then you'd want starting velocities from a powder manufacturer and filter results only for the powders you'd actually use. Or you might add recoil to the mix, if it were important in your decision making. Endless ways to approach it, but it's fun to ponder regardless.

Thanks again.

 

[HARPERC]

....If you were trying to put together the lightest weight, but still half MOA accurate rifle, which of these cartridges would you choose and why?..........

I think this is where your spreadsheet fails. I can't see where there is a place your spreadsheet is comparing apples to apples, when considering rifle systems.

As you said under 250 isn't the conversation, and serious thousand yard big game rifles will scare the Idaho minimum of 16 lbs in my mind.

 

[Newbweatherby]

anspulutley right again I limit to what I shoot that I hope will perform and what I feel confident I can shoot with out injuring a and animal longest 1 shot kiln for me was only 678 yards I shoot a fast load that iam comfortable with with a Hubble telescope scope and a 28"howitzer and I still will never shoot beyond 600 yards on a live game animal even meaning a empty tag for last 3 years

 

[packgoatguy]

I think this is where your spreadsheet fails. I can't see where there is a place your spreadsheet is comparing apples to apples, when considering rifle systems.

As you said under 250 isn't the conversation, and serious thousand yard big game rifles will scare the Idaho minimum of 16 lbs in my mind.

This spreadsheet isn't meant to compare rifle systems. I think we can safely assume that with the right rifle, and the right load workup, a person could make any cartridge on this list shoot 1/4 MOA... I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that any of the calibers are inherently MORE or LESS accurate than others (if I am mistaken, lets get some data on that). In that case, then the rifle platform is irrelevant for this analysis, because any of these calibers could be put into any rifle platform. The real question is, what makes the various cartridges different. For example: At the end of the day, if the 280AI is more limited in case capacity than the 28 Nosler or the 7MMRUM, and if pushed to their max, the 28N or the 7RUM beats the 280AI in velocity with the same bullet... then what real advantage would the 280AI ever have over the alternative? That is the question.

 

[packgoatguy]

anspulutley right again I limit to what I shoot that I hope will perform and what I feel confident I can shoot with out injuring a and animal longest 1 shot kiln for me was only 678 yards I shoot a fast load that iam comfortable with with a Hubble telescope scope and a 28"howitzer and I still will never shoot beyond 600 yards on a live game animal even meaning a empty tag for last 3 years

Yes, but at 678 yards, according to the graph, you have less margin for error if your chosen cartridge was a 7mm08 vs a 28 nosler. Because the 28nosler is pushing that 7mm bullet so much faster, by the time it reaches 678 yards, the real world conditions of wind and everything else will have had less of an effect on that bullet than if the same bullet were fired out of the 7mm08. So, cartridge choice matters. It may not matter as much if you were trying to decide between a 338LM and a 7mmRUM, but the difference/advantage at 678 yards appears significant between a 270WIN and a 28NOS when looking at this chart.

 

[Newbweatherby]

agreed that's I why my son and I chos 3 00 RUM mags be say .7.63 (win.308 ) and the likes available I tried removing as much variables as possible?So where is my error I what I said a out variances in velocity?

 

[HARPERC]

......This spreadsheet isn't meant to compare rifle systems.........

I get that, and it may be what I'm pointing out. If you don't add in essentials like barrel length's effect on velocity then you're altering the inputs by omission.

The advantage the 280AI, has over the 28 Nosler is with the 280AI being better suited for a featherweight type of rifle.