Spreadsheet to determine best long range hunting cartridge

[cohunt]

7WSM vs 7RM --

I just hand loaded an accurate load for my 24" 7wsm using RE23 and berger 168's, Im pushing them at 3042 fps--hit 3100 but it was not accurate

in my 26" 7RM I also hit 3100 with the same bullets, but my accuracy load was at 3080--hit 3150 with 162 eld-x's, but accurate at 3100

to me its not the max speed you can hit with a certain cartridge--its the speed at which you hit the accuracy node

I shot a .190" 3-shot group with my 7wsm and the berger 168's at 3042, when I bumped that speed to 3100 it was at about 1.75" group -- the extra 60 fps does no good in my eyes with the reduced accuracy

accuracy node is going to be dependent on the actual gun, so its hard to say what the "best" caliber is for LRH until you actually shoot the gun, as any real LRH gun must be accurate (and so must the shooter)

also when speed/weight increase, so does the recoil--shooter must be able to handle the recoil to shoot accurately so for some people there will be a "max" recoil that limits their long range potential rater than ballistics

 

[jshepherd61]

In case anyone else finds this (often debated) topic interesting: Ive been planning on setting up another long range capable rifle. With SO SO SO many caliber and cartridge choices available, it is difficult to evaluate which one has the most to offer. The following link is to a Google Sheet spreadsheet that I created that compares some of the more popular long range hunting cartridges.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/156KStH-VKLIwILKsmubbCZDm6XzUvyz47oro0nR5hxY/edit?usp=sharing

The spreadsheet ranks the various cartridges based on the point in their flight when they drop below 1600fps (the minimum velocity when the popular Hornady ELD-X bullets are said to be designed to reliably expand upon impact.) For the purpose of this analysis, I am calling this the "max effective range" of the particular cartridge.

SPOILER ALERT, this spreadsheet puts the 28 Nosler at the top of the list (unless you can get 2900fps or more out of a 270gr 338 bullet.)

The spreadsheet uses the advertised velocities on Hornady's and Nosler's websites.

Also included is the wind drift and drop of each cartridge at 500, 1000, and 1500 yard increments.

Also included is the KPS (Killing Power Score) of each bullet at the corresponding yardages and velocities. (the KPS scale accounts for energy, velocity, bullet weight, sectional density, and the diameter of the bullet to give a "score" that more or less defines its "oomph" on target). Bear in mind that a 10mm pistol at point blank range has a KPS score of 12-17 depending on barrel length and how hot the ammo is.... and that is a round many would argue is adequate medicine for protection in bear infested woods...

So, my question to you all would be: in real life, do you see these velocities as advertised? What other considerations should be included in evaluating the "best" overall long range hunting cartridge?

If you were trying to put together the lightest weight, but still half MOA accurate rifle, which of these cartridges would you choose and why?

Drop my data in the sheet and see the change

 

[jshepherd61]

Drop my data in the spread sheet and you'll see a big change! First 7mm STW, 28" barrel, 168gr ABLR at 3,352 fps

 

[jrock]

Thanks, been wanting to do something like this. I usually pick the bullet I want to shoot, set a speed parameter, and then use that to select a cartridge/barrel length.

 

[jshepherd61]

7WSM vs 7RM --

I just hand loaded an accurate load for my 24" 7wsm using RE23 and berger 168's, Im pushing them at 3042 fps--hit 3100 but it was not accurate

in my 26" 7RM I also hit 3100 with the same bullets, but my accuracy load was at 3080--hit 3150 with 162 eld-x's, but accurate at 3100

to me its not the max speed you can hit with a certain cartridge--its the speed at which you hit the accuracy node

I shot a .190" 3-shot group with my 7wsm and the berger 168's at 3042, when I bumped that speed to 3100 it was at about 1.75" group -- the extra 60 fps does no good in my eyes with the reduced accuracy

accuracy node is going to be dependent on the actual gun, so its hard to say what the "best" caliber is for LRH until you actually shoot the gun, as any real LRH gun must be accurate (and so must the shooter)

also when speed/weight increase, so does the recoil--shooter must be able to handle the recoil to shoot accurately so for some people there will be a "max" recoil that limits their long range potential rater than ballistics

7mm STW, 28" Bartlein with can, 168gr Nosler Accubond Long Range, 83.5 gr Retumbo, 3.734 coal, .002 off the lans, 3,354 fps, no pressure signs if you're in CO above 10,000 ft .214 group.

 

[davsco]

7mm STW, 28" Bartlein with can, 168gr Nosler Accubond Long Range, 83.5 gr Retumbo, 3.734 coal, .002 off the lans, 3,354 fps, no pressure signs if you're in CO above 10,000 ft .214 group.

i sure would hate to be hit by that! but with 28", and a can, that's one less walking stick you need!

 

[jshepherd61]

i sure would hate to be hit by that! but with 28", and a can, that's one less walking stick you need!

Taken elk the last four seasons, one shot on each shortest distance 1,028 yds year before last. Not one of them took a step after impact!

 

[packgoatguy]

7WSM vs 7RM --

I just hand loaded an accurate load for my 24" 7wsm using RE23 and berger 168's, Im pushing them at 3042 fps--hit 3100 but it was not accurate

in my 26" 7RM I also hit 3100 with the same bullets, but my accuracy load was at 3080--hit 3150 with 162 eld-x's, but accurate at 3100

to me its not the max speed you can hit with a certain cartridge--its the speed at which you hit the accuracy node

I shot a .190" 3-shot group with my 7wsm and the berger 168's at 3042, when I bumped that speed to 3100 it was at about 1.75" group -- the extra 60 fps does no good in my eyes with the reduced accuracy

accuracy node is going to be dependent on the actual gun, so its hard to say what the "best" caliber is for LRH until you actually shoot the gun, as any real LRH gun must be accurate (and so must the shooter)

also when speed/weight increase, so does the recoil--shooter must be able to handle the recoil to shoot accurately so for some people there will be a "max" recoil that limits their long range potential rater than ballistics

Great Point about the Accuracy Node!!! Now if we had a way to get data on all of these calibers, all loaded by the same person, all tweeted to find the sweetspot for max velocity/max accuracy, all using the same rifle platform and barrel length... that would be very useful info for sure.

As for the recoil issue... that of course is a factor to weigh when considering one's preferred caliber... for me personally, I don't mind using a brake. My tikka superlite 300WM kicks like a mule in its factory config, but add my custom break... and even my 12 year old can shoot it without complaint... on par with my 243. Purely subjective though... as everyone's recoil tolerance is different.

 

[packgoatguy]

Drop my data in the spread sheet and you'll see a big change! First 7mm STW, 28" barrel, 168gr ABLR at 3,352 fps

That is SMOKIN! However, for this analysis, I have been trying to keep the comparison as "apples to apples" as possible, so all of the numbers reported in the spreadsheet are all from 24 inch barrels, 6000 ft elevation, 40 degree temp. If we had a way to know what the difference with your load is out of a 4 inch shorter barrel, that could be an option for adding it. Also, it would be interesting for comparison sake to know what your same rifle platform and your reloading skills could do with some of the other 7mm options, like the 28nos, or 7mmRUM. Would you be expecting to beat the STW, or are you thinking the STW represents the max capability of the 7mm bullet?

 

[packgoatguy]

V

338 285 eld-m g1 bc=.829
Change that value in your spreadsheet and run one for the lapua imp. I've shot the 285 out of a 338 imp @ 2900 fps and the bc was good out to 1600 yds. The .796 bc on the 180 eld-m is good to go in a 8 twist. You lose quite a bit of bc in a 9 twist, but it still shoots well. It's hard to beat how well a 338 kills, but that 7mm sure shots flat.

Very interesting! Hornady lists the .829 on the plain bullets... but lists the .789 on the factory loaded rounds. Typo? or some other reason? I did add a line for both now.

Also, if you wouldnt mind... and I know its been covered elsewhere, but can you educate me on what it takes to do "338LM improved" vs regular? rifle/action modifications? etc? Is that the most juice you can get out of a 338, or will something like the EDGE be able to eek out more?

 

[Newbweatherby]

wow no mention of any of the RUM cartridges 338 338 edge ,300 or 7mm?

 

[johnlittletree]

This is not F-Class or Bench Rest shooting that is the sort of nonsense infecting real hunting. the BC of a hunting bullet should be the last thing you consider not the first thing. The most important factor about a bullet that no one on this sights seem to mention is penetration and expansion at the velocity you expect the cartridge to have at the distance you intend to shoot the animal at. The bigest problem with long range hunters is their ignorance to bullet construction from the stand point of producing a quick merciful kill. They spend far too much time looking at numbers that are almost meaningless to hunting. They ignore the single most important detail about a cartridge and bullet combo which is how it behaves on impact with structure on large game. I can almost guarantee that 99% of the hunters on this sight are shooting the worst possible bullets at large game because they worry to much about drop and wind drift and not enough about the construction of the bullet as it applies to on target performance. People on this sight act as if getting the bullet to the animal is the end of bullet performance and hunting but really that is just the beginning. Boat tails bad, VLD's bad, thin jackets bad, hollow points with thin jackets the worst!

 

[Hand Skills]

 

[jshepherd61]

That is SMOKIN! However, for this analysis, I have been trying to keep the comparison as "apples to apples" as possible, so all of the numbers reported in the spreadsheet are all from 24 inch barrels, 6000 ft elevation, 40 degree temp. If we had a way to know what the difference with your load is out of a 4 inch shorter barrel, that could be an option for adding it. Also, it would be interesting for comparison sake to know what your same rifle platform and your reloading skills could do with some of the other 7mm options, like the 28nos, or 7mmRUM. Would you be expecting to beat the STW, or are you thinking the STW represents the max capability of the 7mm bullet?

I can push my 7mm RUM about 13 fps more but on the over pressure side wouldn't share that info. The only thing I can push harder is my 28" barreled 30-378 with the same pill!