Reloading- What pressure signs do you stop at?

[VinceMule]

Turpendine, we shoot Gentry muzzle break on everything from Model 7 in 243 on up to big 7's. The Gentry has the ports slanted forward and it takes a lot of the concussion off of your head unlike std Radial muzzle breaks and side discharge muzzle breaks. However, the side discharge muzzle breaks do take out more recoil but not by much.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Hoss, I am still trying to learn new things and ways to shoot better and clean my gun barrels.

I am way beyond Speedys Cleaning methods, so is Winning In the Wind as he demonstrates on You Tube.

Gun cleaning has to be addressed on the calbier size and round frequency, with more aggressive methods being used as the barrel accumulates more fouling.

Boss, you could learn a thing or two from Keith Glascock, Winning in the Wind videos on You Tube, they take you to another level. Your cleaning frequency may vary from Keith's. Of course, you have to want to learn AND be open to new ideas.

It would be interesting to see Speedy/Eric document their cleaning process on a 280 Ackley AI, having shot 40 rounds with IMR 7828 and 162-168g Bullets. You can bet your last dollar that they would not just use patches, or plastic brushes. You can't approach every dirty barrel like it is a 6 PPC benchrest rifle with just 7-12 rounds in the barrel in between cleanings.

Having brought up the cleaning process, the procedure used to clean a 338 Lapua long-range hunting rifle would be interesting. It would be great if a guy like Alex Wheeler could enlighten us on the process he uses with You Tube videos like Winning in the Win does.

I know of guys that shoot 1000-yard benches with a 50 BMG that go straight to Silicone carbide in 600 and 800 grit to get the carbon out of the barrel. It is well known that Silicone carbide cuts metal, the devil would be in the technique.

Trying to clean barrels that foul is where the vast majority of us on this board are. Speedy has the luxury of culling a barrel that fouls and teaches fellow competitors to do the same. The truth is for the super competitors, they have to have barrels that do not foul.

Most of us do not have the money to chamber up and cull barrels, we have to learn to make do and get the very best accuracy from the barrels that we have. We have to learn various cleaning techniques to keep those barrels performing at their best.

Boss, almost all of this discussion is a waste. Hard to get a guy to even buy a decent rod guide with a bushing to center the rod in the bore, and talking a guy into buying a Wind Flag is a shore enough waste of time.

With the Teslong bore scope getting to be popular with its inexpensive price tag, we will begin to see more and more videos on barrel quality, chambering quality, and cleaning techniques. It is one thing for you and I to BS about this and that, but in your face documentation of chamber and bore conditions speak the TRUTH in volumes. Watching a video puts you in Real Time vs just seeing a picture of the condition.

One of the big gains that are coming is bore scoping a barrel Blank prior to chambering. Speedy does this in the very least of a barrel's evaluation prior to chambering. If a barrel looks rough as a blank, no way it should be put in the lathe and chambered. For Long Range Hunters, this is a major consideration as some of these cut rifle barrels are rough as a cob and become copper-fouling HOGS leaving the owner in one heck of a mess.

Another issue that is coming with the bore scope getting so plentiful is the final quality of a barrel's chamber, especially the throat. Lots for pipe fitters out there spinning on barrels and some crap that is being produced by CNC Lathes. When Speedy chambers a barrel, .0001 run out in the throat on a final check after chambering is normal. Some of these pipe threaders are getting up to .006 and .003 would be totally acceptable...total junk to a guy wanting to shoot small groups in comp or Long range hunting.

I bought a nice camera to make videos with, so I could document just how ineffective some of these soaking products are with larger calibers with only 20 rounds on a clean bore(down to bare metal), the effects of using plastic brushes, plastic brushes with iosso, Jb, bronze bristle brushes, worn bronze bristle and plastic brush use with Fine Bronze Wool and JB/Iosso, and some solutions I make with various grades of Al Oxide, how to pour lead laps and bore lapping. I do have the ability to measure throat/bore dia and of course the throat length.

Then there is the issue of the Heat Index of the powder used and how it burns super hot or cool with the corresponding residue left in the barrel. Bore scopes will bring to light much of how super hot burning powder types cook on the carbon fouling to a greater or lesser degree depending on the Heat index of that powder.

The average Long Range Shooter needs to be able to deal with the amount of fouling in his barrel for his intended use and adapt his load for barrel wear over time, but that is another heated discussion.

Putting on another barrel just because it is not perfect or requires some effort in cleaning should not be part of the discussion, how to get the most from that barrel should be the Subject...consult Winning In The Wind Video's After a guy learns some basics from Speedy/Eric. Winning IN the Wind assumes that you know some of the basics.

Yes I have used the "Wind Is Your Friend" shooting that Speedy and others have shown me. Helped me win a few HOF points so far. Will tell you this about the product above. That is all Speedy has been using for some time. I used it to clean my 375 EnABELR, 338 Slowpoke which is an improved 338 Lapua, Warp 7 which is a based on a 300 win mag, and a friends 204 Ruger that was so nasty inside it even made me take notice. All were clean down to the bare metal as verified with the Hawkeye. Going to try it on others shortly when I need to.

All of my rifles have SPC tubes even the Ralf Martini's with Hagan actions and Chuck Grace rifles. As a result, I always clean to the bare metal and they shoot dots as Speedy likes to say. Personally, I use mirage, wind flags and even grass to judge my shots. I am not a group shooter but a score shooter because it is only important for me to hit the center of the target as I am a foremost a hunter. It is nice to drive home with "wood" and other goodies because it makes the drive home faster.

With respect to tube life that is irrelevant to me because there is no way to avoid a very hot barrel when shooting a relay. The good thing about Speedy rifles is heat will not change the POI, been shooting to 20 or so he has built for me the last almost 20 years.

If your cleaning regimen works for you then that is great---Personally this product cuts my cleaning time by almost 75%. In conclusion the borescope also shows on neglected rifles which is most I have looked through even at Speedy's shop have layered fouling and copper and with the factory 204 got it all out. That rifle took over 2 hours due to dwell time for the chemical to work. Even works better on copper than the Sweets and hydrogen peroxide method.

 

[VinceMule]

Thanks for posting, HOSS! What are SPC tubes?

So, you are using bore tec eliminator with accelerator? I would love to know your exact technique, I have every product they make. Getting IMR XBR 8208 carbon out of a 308 is not easy.
Thanks!

 

[Dean2]

Crap on a cracker! So just how far off topic can you guys popssibly get. How about starting your own thread on the topics of cleaning, Speedy, Long range BR and every other thing you want to talk about.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Crap on a cracker! So just how far off topic can you guys popssibly get. How about starting your own thread on the topics of cleaning, Speedy, Long range BR and every other thing you want to talk about.

Dean---what you are missing here is with an extremely fouled bore your pressures will go up significantly among other things.

Vince---SPC is Single Point Cut.

This will be my last post on this as some are not aware of the relationship of fouling and its impact on velocity, pressure and the associated accuracy. Will just leave it at that.....

 

[VinceMule]

I have seen barrels fouled so badly that a Minimum book load was causing the guy to beat his bolt open on the rifle. He quit bragging about never cleaning his bores.

Brux and Krieger are my favorite cut barrels. Krieger's service after the sale is second to none along with Shilen's for a button rifle barrel.

 

[General RE LEE]

Haven't read all the responses but I do have a pressure related question. I get stiff bolt lift and slight ejector marks with Alpha Munitions brass for a not-so-hot-load. Velocities are 2500 fps 178 grain ELD-X 20" barrel 308. Load is 42.5 grains of Varget. I am going to back off half a grain which will probably put velocity in the high 2400s.

Anyone dealt with brass that hits pressure with rather benign loads? What is the root cause for this?

 

[slikmrc]

I was looking at loading this bullet in the 308 last night. You are a .1 grains over Hornadys book max and 50 fps faster, they were using Hornady brass. Could be a smaller case capicity with your brass causing it, or your up against pressure with that rifle.

 

[General RE LEE]

I was looking at loading this bullet in the 308 last night. You are a .1 grains over Hornadys book max and 50 fps faster, they were using Hornady brass. Could be a smaller case capicity with your brass causing it, or your up against pressure with that rifle.

Yep I saw that.

 

[Turpentine21]

I run 43.7 Varget under 168s in LC Match Cases. 2 full grains under what I load in Winchester cases for the same velocity In a 20 inch barrel. LC is some heavy stuff. With you at 178s and Alpha likely being thicker, heavier than hornady. Hornady brass I've weighed is generally pretty light. You're likely maxed out at 2500 With that combo.
Added, this is out of my bolt gun. I do not care for Varget in a gas gun due to port pressure. With slower powders like Varget and IMR 4064 you have to watch port pressures. Something in the 4895, AR Comp, 8208 burn rate my help you but watch out with 8208 in top end loads, it'll get away from you on the top end quick.

 

[VinceMule]

Gen Lee, if you can find any, try some IMR xbr 8208, I run 42g in Lapua brass with a cci 200 primer with the 175g Sierra TMK, super accurate.

Varget has one heck of a pressure spike at top end pressures.

 

[highfinblue]

Very good information here, and if you want more velocity just go up a caliber, we shouldn't attempt to make a 308 shoot like a 30-06. When I was younger I did these things, but it's just not wisdom. A friend of mine just had a CZ rifle come apart because of pressure, it could have killed him, luckily he only received minor injuries, but it is just not worth it.

 

[980yds]

Dear safety Steve, we ask politely that you sit this one out. Or, just limit your input to photographic evidence...

What pressure signs do you stop at?

This question is for the guys who want the most out of velocity. I have rifles that I don't push and just shoot for accuracy even if it is well below the max. I have a couple that I like to push to the max. So, where do you maverick's draw the line with pressure signs. Is it when primers begin to flatten, completely flatten, crater primers, hard bolt lift, ejector marks, swipe, etc.. I know there are false pressure signs, please include experience with that.

Rules for answering:
Rule number one: Safety First
Rule number two: Lets hear real world experience, not ethics or safety Steve ranting about not testing boundaries.
Rule number three: Let the dragon breath!

Flattened primers, ejector marks and definitely a heavy bolt.

 

[980yds]

Flattened primers, ejector marks and definitely a heavy bolt.