Reloading- What pressure signs do you stop at?

[VinceMule]

Tell me Boss, how many companies does Speedy do R&D for? How many patents does he hold worldwide? Think that Speedy could be a project manager on the B 1 Bomber project or be Rockwell's #1 engineer. He also made computers from scratch in his basement that calibrated other computers. This guy did R&D for gunmakers worldwide. Bill Davis of Aberdeen Proving grounds had him on Speed Dial, and so did the President of Colt, Winchester, and Federal. In fact, he gave the patent of the Gold Metal Match ammo he invented to the Olympic team, and the Federal bought the patent. Oh yea, he shot benchrest also and built the Olympic rifles that whipped almost everyone in the World.

Everything Speedy is talking about concerning the Euber bullets my buddy was working with Aberdeen proving grounds taking pictures of bullets in 1989. They were making bullets and dies that made bullets that eliminated bullet yaw within 50 feet of the muzzle, it is in the ogive design and twist rate. I bought the bullet-making dies. I also had a duplicate set of dies for Euber's 68's, "fat bullet" and Fowler's 66s. The bullet that stabilized within 50 feet of the muzzle is a 6 S ogive.

If everyone does everything the same way, the learning curve for the bunch is slow. Benchrest shooters are like elephants with their tails tied together, we talked about this fact 30 years ago where if one guy had a wheel on the side of his gun and he won the match, then at the next match many shooters will have a wheel on the side of their gun.

Speedy taught me to taper bore a chamber 30 years ago, he is one heck of a gunsmith, absolutely one of the very best.

If you want to get the Extreme Spread on your 68g in the 6PPC down to 1 fps over 10 shots, you have to think outside the box. Try it! Groups will reward you at 300!

Wax does NOT ad more fouling in the barrel and anyone that says it does has not actually used it, they are just repeating something they have heard.

Everything that Speedy and Eric spoke of in this video we knew in 1990, talking in between matches when we were loading and cleaning.

They determined that the bullet that stabilized almost immediately from the muzzle was a 6 S ogive bullet, much better than the Euber 68.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Here's another option.

Rifle Barrel Chamber Pressure Testing Hardware & Software | Pressure Trace

Measure ACTUAL rifle chamber pressure for each shot, barrel harmonics, rise time, time to muzzle exit and OBT barrel timing.

www.shootingsoftware.com

It pays to read!

 

[Mike Matteson]

You have to condition your ears to the brakes. After I while you won't even hear them...

I kind of have to laugh. Spend a year in combat with tanks, APC, 50's, and a hell of a lot of other noise makers. You don't worry about much after that. At the range I do use hearing protection. In the field hunting, birds, and larger game I don't.
I hear of sues on hearing pertectors in the later combat tours in the Army. I guess they didn't work. We never had hearing protect in Vietnam that I know of.
The real funny part is: My hearing was perfect going into the Army. After I got out I went back to the VA because my ears were ringing, and still do today. The VA told me that yes I had a hearing lost, but not services connected. I wonder where I was at for those 22 months 3 weeks. I guess I was off for a vacation. It didn't seem like one.
I have one rifle with brake, and getting a second one. It's a little longer, but made up different. it's very effective, and at the same time it doesn't push you around. I work give you his name, but he slower that hell.

 

[Turpentine21]

I put a big rock over the "Rabbit Hole" couple of decades ago. Most of my rifles shoot better than I can shoot them! I'd tried most everything I came across, neck sizing , neck turning, bullet lube on and on. Unless you're a bench rest shooter most everything that's been talked about is being OCD to the tenth degree. I understand trying to shoot to 1000 yards and beyond. But most reticles cover up more space on a target at that distance than what's being gained with this obsession! Just a thought from a grouchy old reloader.

All depends on what blows your dress up. Mainly, I just like to shoot. The 1000 yard thing is a very interesting part of that. But I do agree we tend to obsess over some things a little to much Sometimes But to a cause and effect tinkerer like me, that keeps it interesting.

 

[Mike Matteson]

As far as setting up a load or round for my rifles. The one's I ran up were belted mag. Several of them are 5grs+ over reloading manuals hot load. I normally use Fed 210 primers in my rifles. (nothing over 338WM) The first time I increase the powder loads I went up .1gr at a time. Learn that if my were in the 70gr area for powder, I could go up at .5gr increase at a time. I only load 1 case per increase. I stop before heavy bolt lift, or ejector marks. I watch my primers for signs. I stop at flatten primers, just at creating the primers. No ejector marks. I am close. No heavy bolt lift either. Velocity and grouping is my goal. The other is I don't use double base powders either if I can help it. Generally I use a 26" barrel length or longer. Not all, but most. Double based powder I have found to be Temp Sensitivity.
Back to primers: I watch or look at each fired case with the powder increase on what the primer is doing. I feel I can read my primers, because I have been doing this for over 23yrs now. Most of my brass is Winchester. I had found out a long time ago, that the case were lighter. The weigth varied, but I group them.
Persently I am changing to Peterson, or Lapua brass. So I will have to workup new load for them. I do lose primer pockets in about 10 to 12 firing. No case separations at the base, nor split necks except only now or them. Primer pocket is my biggest lose of cases.
Once I develop a load for that rifle I stay with it. That's geared to what I am going to hunt for animals size. I am not a big fan of heavy bullets, and at the same time my range is 500yds or very close to that. I don't use Mag primers either. I have some, but generally don't use them. I do believe in trying different primers to see what the rifle likes, along with all the other tricks. I also felt like that Fed 210 match primers were a little hotter that just Fed 210 primers. Those primers I had the best luck with.
I do believe that the people that are putting out reload manuals data, have to stay within a very safe range. To many brainless people out there.
It's been a great discission here on pressure signs on primers. I am going to look into that PressureTrace Internal Ballistics System. Beside who dies with the most toys wins.

 

[Turpentine21]

I kind of have to laugh. Spend a year in combat with tanks, APC, 50's, and a hell of a lot of other noise makers. You don't worry about much after that. At the range I do use hearing protection. In the field hunting, birds, and larger game I don't.
I hear of sues on hearing pertectors in the later combat tours in the Army. I guess they didn't work. We never had hearing protect in Vietnam that I know of.
The real funny part is: My hearing was perfect going into the Army. After I got out I went back to the VA because my ears were ringing, and still do today. The VA told me that yes I had a hearing lost, but not services connected. I wonder where I was at for those 22 months 3 weeks. I guess I was off for a vacation. It didn't seem like one.
I have one rifle with brake, and getting a second one. It's a little longer, but made up different. it's very effective, and at the same time it doesn't push you around. I work give you his name, but he slower that hell.

I can plug and muff to where I hear no noise whatsoever. But it's the concussion that somehow gets me. I'm in documented double digit concussion territory with wrecks, football, trauma, etc. I tried a brake again last week and have had a headache and blurred vision ever since. I hate it because there are some larger calibers I'd like to shoot regularly.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Tell me Boss, how many companies does Speedy do R&D for? How many patents does he hold worldwide? Think that Speedy could be a project manager on the B 1 Bomber project or be Rockwell's #1 engineer. He also made computers from scratch in his basement that calibrated other computers. This guy did R&D for gunmakers worldwide. Bill Davis of Aberdeen Proving grounds had him on Speed Dial, and so did the President of Colt, Winchester, and Federal. In fact, he gave the patent of the Gold Metal Match ammo he invented to the Olympic team, and the Federal bought the patent. Oh yea, he shot benchrest also and built the Olympic rifles that whipped almost everyone in the World.

Everything Speedy is talking about concerning the Euber bullets my buddy was working with Aberdeen proving grounds taking pictures of bullets in 1989. They were making bullets and dies that made bullets that eliminated bullet yaw within 50 feet of the muzzle, it is in the ogive design and twist rate. I bought the bullet-making dies. I also had a duplicate set of dies for Euber's 68's, "fat bullet" and Fowler's 66s. The bullet that stabilized within 50 feet of the muzzle is a 6 S ogive.

If everyone does everything the same way, the learning curve for the bunch is slow. Benchrest shooters are like elephants with their tails tied together, we talked about this fact 30 years ago where if one guy had a wheel on the side of his gun and he won the match, then at the next match many shooters will have a wheel on the side of their gun.

Speedy taught me to taper bore a chamber 30 years ago, he is one heck of a gunsmith, absolutely one of the very best.

If you want to get the Extreme Spread on your 68g in the 6PPC down to 1 fps over 10 shots, you have to think outside the box. Try it! Groups will reward you at 300!

Wax does NOT ad more fouling in the barrel and anyone that says it does has not actually used it, they are just repeating something they have heard.

Everything that Speedy and Eric spoke of in this video we knew in 1990, talking in between matches when we were loading and cleaning.

They determined that the bullet that stabilized almost immediately from the muzzle was a 6 S ogive bullet, much better than the Euber 68.

Yes Speedy has worked with the USG for many years on different projects. I have personally with my own eyes seen some of the correspondence. He also has set World Accuracy Records. Speedy makes his own bullets for the short-range game. Made the forming dies himself--I bought cores for him for the last 6 mm bullets he made.

When you are in the HOF and have set world record's then please enlighten me. I have a few HOF points myself and understand more than you know. To try and make a point that Speedy is somehow behind the times "Everything Speedy is talking about concerning the Euber bullets my buddy was working with Aberdeen proving grounds taking pictures of bullets in 1989." you are just making yourself look less than informed. He still wins almost every match he shoots in and has gotten into the 1- and 2-mile stuff now.

That vid is only one of many he has made and was just used as an example. I think most who have been shooting for awhile remember the "moly craze". It was all the rage and Siearra even made them for a short time because there was such a demand for them not that it offered any accuracy advantage confirmed by testing, he participated in. My shooting partner and the guy who got me started in 1k BR was a Ballistician at Siearra for many years. Rich and I used to discuss how this came about and chuckled about and to your point BR shooters are like moths to a flame.

Just one more thing----Military Aerospace you are just trying to get me into a conversation lol. 34 years in development, production and sustainment some of it black world left in 2019 for the largest military aerospace contractor in the world. You use Rockwell as an example and yes 30 years ago they were a player so throwing out to see what sticks on the wall you run into people who are in the industry and have the skins on the wall.

Speedy knows me very well we communicated about this thread. If you know Speedy then you know why he does not as most of the good ones do not spend time on chat boards.

 

[Rosebud]

All depends on what blows your dress up. Mainly, I just like to shoot. The 1000 yard thing is a very interesting part of that. But I do agree we tend to obsess over some things a little to much Sometimes But to a cause and effect tinkerer like me, that keeps it interesting.

I understand, there wasn't much I didn't try. I mostly load ammo for myself and friends to hunt with. Most of the people I load for will only shoot 10 To 15 % of the ammo I load for them each year. Unless they get another rifle I'll not load for them in next five years. I love to shoot, but not compeat. Getting old slows you down and trying new things just for the sake of trying new things wears thin. Hard for me to tell the wife I need a new toy for the reloading room when there's $15 thousand + in equipment settling there now. Crap, I have $16 hundred in hammer bullets alone

 

[VinceMule]

Hoss, I am still trying to learn new things and ways to shoot better and clean my gun barrels.

I am way beyond Speedys Cleaning methods, so is Winning In the Wind as he demonstrates on You Tube.

Gun cleaning has to be addressed on the calbier size and round frequency, with more aggressive methods being used as the barrel accumulates more fouling.

Boss, you could learn a thing or two from Keith Glascock, Winning in the Wind videos on You Tube, they take you to another level. Your cleaning frequency may vary from Keith's. Of course, you have to want to learn AND be open to new ideas.

It would be interesting to see Speedy/Eric document their cleaning process on a 280 Ackley AI, having shot 40 rounds with IMR 7828 and 162-168g Bullets. You can bet your last dollar that they would not just use patches, or plastic brushes. You can't approach every dirty barrel like it is a 6 PPC benchrest rifle with just 7-12 rounds in the barrel in between cleanings.

Having brought up the cleaning process, the procedure used to clean a 338 Lapua long-range hunting rifle would be interesting. It would be great if a guy like Alex Wheeler could enlighten us on the process he uses with You Tube videos like Winning in the Win does.

I know of guys that shoot 1000-yard benches with a 50 BMG that go straight to Silicone carbide in 600 and 800 grit to get the carbon out of the barrel. It is well known that Silicone carbide cuts metal, the devil would be in the technique.

Trying to clean barrels that foul is where the vast majority of us on this board are. Speedy has the luxury of culling a barrel that fouls and teaches fellow competitors to do the same. The truth is for the super competitors, they have to have barrels that do not foul.

Most of us do not have the money to chamber up and cull barrels, we have to learn to make do and get the very best accuracy from the barrels that we have. We have to learn various cleaning techniques to keep those barrels performing at their best.

Boss, almost all of this discussion is a waste. Hard to get a guy to even buy a decent rod guide with a bushing to center the rod in the bore, and talking a guy into buying a Wind Flag is a shore enough waste of time.

With the Teslong bore scope getting to be popular with its inexpensive price tag, we will begin to see more and more videos on barrel quality, chambering quality, and cleaning techniques. It is one thing for you and I to BS about this and that, but in your face documentation of chamber and bore conditions speak the TRUTH in volumes. Watching a video puts you in Real Time vs just seeing a picture of the condition.

One of the big gains that are coming is bore scoping a barrel Blank prior to chambering. Speedy does this in the very least of a barrel's evaluation prior to chambering. If a barrel looks rough as a blank, no way it should be put in the lathe and chambered. For Long Range Hunters, this is a major consideration as some of these cut rifle barrels are rough as a cob and become copper-fouling HOGS leaving the owner in one heck of a mess.

Another issue that is coming with the bore scope getting so plentiful is the final quality of a barrel's chamber, especially the throat. Lots for pipe fitters out there spinning on barrels and some crap that is being produced by CNC Lathes. When Speedy chambers a barrel, .0001 run out in the throat on a final check after chambering is normal. Some of these pipe threaders are getting up to .006 and .003 would be totally acceptable...total junk to a guy wanting to shoot small groups in comp or Long range hunting.

I bought a nice camera to make videos with, so I could document just how ineffective some of these soaking products are with larger calibers with only 20 rounds on a clean bore(down to bare metal), the effects of using plastic brushes, plastic brushes with iosso, Jb, bronze bristle brushes, worn bronze bristle and plastic brush use with Fine Bronze Wool and JB/Iosso, and some solutions I make with various grades of Al Oxide, how to pour lead laps and bore lapping. I do have the ability to measure throat/bore dia and of course the throat length.

Then there is the issue of the Heat Index of the powder used and how it burns super hot or cool with the corresponding residue left in the barrel. Bore scopes will bring to light much of how super hot burning powder types cook on the carbon fouling to a greater or lesser degree depending on the Heat index of that powder.

The average Long Range Shooter needs to be able to deal with the amount of fouling in his barrel for his intended use and adapt his load for barrel wear over time, but that is another heated discussion.

Putting on another barrel just because it is not perfect or requires some effort in cleaning should not be part of the discussion, how to get the most from that barrel should be the Subject...consult Winning In The Wind Video's After a guy learns some basics from Speedy/Eric. Winning IN the Wind assumes that you know some of the basics.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I can plug and muff to where I hear no noise whatsoever. But it's the concussion that somehow gets me. I'm in documented double digit concussion territory with wrecks, football, trauma, etc. I tried a brake again last week and have had a headache and blurred vision ever since. I hate it because there are some larger calibers I'd like to shoot regularly.

I feel for you. Mind isn't that bad. The biggest I use is a 338WM. That has been my go to rifle after I got a brake placed on it. I have another one being work on that has 2" longer barrel on it. I want to see if I can get the velocity up about 100fps with 200gr bullet. Presently I using W760 and it's a double based powder. The load was develop in the summer time so the hot weather does really effect. Cool weather I don't know.

 

[VinceMule]

I wear plugs and electronic ear muffs at the rifle range, electronic ear muffs when I deer hunt as I am grunting and rattling in bucks...deer talk to each other more than you would ever believe. I never heard all the deer talk till I started wearing electronic ear muffs which takes the hunting experience to a whole new level.

 

[Turpentine21]

I understand, there wasn't much I didn't try. I mostly load ammo for myself and friends to hunt with. Most of the people I load for will only shoot 10 To 15 % of the ammo I load for them each year. Unless they get another rifle I'll not load for them in next five years. I love to shoot, but not compeat. Getting old slows you down and trying new things just for the sake of trying new things wears thin. Hard for me to tell the wife I need a new toy for the reloading room when there's $15 thousand + in equipment settling there now. Crap, I have $16 hundred in hammer bullets alone

I'm with you completely. I don't compete. I too have slimmed my process down considerably. I shoot way more than the average guy but a whole lot less the some. I can't take the wear and tear of shooting a lot now. I used to burn about 50,000 rounds a year shooting clays but now I'd rather try to read the wind and throw 15 bullets down range in an afternoon and socialize a bit. I rarely hunt. But I do help some farmer buddies out with depredation. I don't do tree stands anymore.
I got old really fast at 35 in a treestand accident. I like to experiment because I made a pact with myself after my accident. I figured if I couldn't do much physically, the least I could do was try to get smarter. Whether that worked the jury is still out. I couldn't walk unassisted for 3.5 years or put my own socks on for that matter. 9 operations, one complete rebuild, and 11 fused vertebra later I light an x ray up like a Christmas tree and set a metal detector on fire from a long way off. But, I can stand up straight, walk, tie my shoes, and put my socks on now. But, I can't shoot prone.
All that means I enjoy the little thing more now, and trying to learn new stuff everyday keeps me going. Mostly I'm just a good ole boy that makes up for not being too bright by doing some really stupid things from time to time. But I do enjoy those things a lot more than I used to.

 

[Turpentine21]

I feel for you. Mind isn't that bad. The biggest I use is a 338WM. That has been my go to rifle after I got a brake placed on it. I have another one being work on that has 2" longer barrel on it. I want to see if I can get the velocity up about 100fps with 200gr bullet. Presently I using W760 and it's a double based powder. The load was develop in the summer time so the hot weather does really effect. Cool weather I don't know.

I'd love to try to shoot a 338 but it wouldn't be wise. Concussion and vibration get me. Ive made up my mind even though I don't want to to try a suppressor . That should help. I just don't like the idea of all the paperwork and the tax stamp.
In this discussion about pressure, I wonder how much pressure is generated by leaving the ammunition on the dashboard all summer and then shooting it at the end of a scorching day?

 

[Turpentine21]

I wear plugs and electronic ear muffs at the rifle range, electronic ear muffs when I deer hunt as I am grunting and rattling in bucks...deer talk to each other more than you would ever believe. I never heard all the deer talk till I started wearing electronic ear muffs which takes the hunting experience to a whole new level.

I use electronic muffs under plugs when I trap sporting clay events. I can actually hear the shooter call pull instead of reading lips.