What I'm finding as I venture into 1000 yards and beyond is that it takes a good (waterline): Es and SD to be accurate out that far. Good groups are not enough. A gun can shoot great groups at 100-200 but if it's speed varies by 40 fps you are doomed at long range. Perhaps I'm slow so it takes me a while to figure things out but this is certainly a big on when it comes to Long Range accuracy
Reloading- What pressure signs do you stop at?
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memtb
Well-Known Member
Exactly Mike, hence the reason that I said that the chosen load, safe at high temps, must be checked, verified, logged at various temps down to the lowest temperatures expected to encounter.
I can't think of any other practical method, while getting maximum performance from the firearm. Having a different box of cartridges for different temperature brackets down to the expected potential low certainly seems impractical……What'sa fella to do?
memtbNot very scientific, but when working up loads in Spring and Summer, you can put your loaded rounds in a quart freezer bag, then place that bag submersed in an ice chest with ice in it. Let the rounds stay in the ice for an hour or more. Fire for the group and Chrono immediately upon taking from the ice.
Likewise, place the loaded ammo in the armpit for 5 minutes, this will heat up the ammo for pressure/velocity group testing.
Likewise, place the loaded ammo in the armpit for 5 minutes, this will heat up the ammo for pressure/velocity group testing.
memtb
Well-Known Member
I agree that it should help determine variances at different temps…..but how do you address that?
Example: It is not uncommon to see daily temp variances of 40+ F degree changes on a day hunt. Given two or more weeks camped (rv) during elk/deer season those variances can be much greater. On a 3 week hunt, we can experience everything from tee shirt temps during the heat of a day to near zero lows a week or so later!
The week before Thanksgiving of 1993, we went on a Whitetail hunt in the Black Hills of Wyoming, in our new (to us) camper. We went from very near tee shirt weather Saturday to sub zero temperatures Sunday morning. It was a weekend of hell…mostly thanks to the rv dealer "NOT" having done all of the work that was supposed to be done prior to our loading our gear into it Friday in Casper and head out to the hills! We could write a short novel about that 6 day adventure!
That's just one of many that my wife and I have had in our 35 years togethe!
memtbMemtd, realistically, you know what distances you are probably going to be taking your shots at. IF you are shooting past 300 yards, then the use of an Extreme powder of some kind is mandatory.
Second, I wax my bullets which lowers the Standard Deviation to much less than 10 fps and 3 fps is not unusual. My 6 PPC runs zero SD. Waxing bullets is old technology and Lapua has been using Moly and wax for decades with a ton of documented evidence. I use Lee Sizing wax in the tooth paste type of container that runs $3.
New or different ideas are not accepted by the general public, especially if it takes effort and a bit of thinking outside the box. I learned the technique from a guy that built Olympic rifles and also developed the Federal Gold Metal match ammo, the 17 HMR, and the Browning BOSS system.
Second, I wax my bullets which lowers the Standard Deviation to much less than 10 fps and 3 fps is not unusual. My 6 PPC runs zero SD. Waxing bullets is old technology and Lapua has been using Moly and wax for decades with a ton of documented evidence. I use Lee Sizing wax in the tooth paste type of container that runs $3.
New or different ideas are not accepted by the general public, especially if it takes effort and a bit of thinking outside the box. I learned the technique from a guy that built Olympic rifles and also developed the Federal Gold Metal match ammo, the 17 HMR, and the Browning BOSS system.
The only way to effectively account for temp change is to test fire at 90F then at 40 F then at -25 F over a Chrono. Use a temp stable powder to minimise the variance. There is no way to test at each distinct temp. Use the velocity info to figure out the FPS variance per degree. Feed that and your actual POI/Drop info into a quality ballistics calcualtor. Use that Calculator on the hunt as elevation, humidity etc also need to be accounted for beyond 500 yards.
memtb
Well-Known Member
VinceMule, I know that I'm not a dedicated long range shooter/hunter and am pretty ignorant in the field of long range shooting…..but, wasn't aware of the bullet waxing concept!
Bullet waxing appears to be a very minor inconvenience that may produce huge rewards. Thanks, for "opening my eyes" this morning! memtb
Bullet waxing appears to be a very minor inconvenience that may produce huge rewards. Thanks, for "opening my eyes" this morning!
memtb"Second, I wax my bullets which lowers the Standard Deviation to much less than 10 fps and 3 fps is not unusual. My 6 PPC runs zero SD. Waxing bullets is old technology and Lapua has been using Moly and wax for decades with a ton of documented evidence. I use Lee Sizing wax in the tooth paste type of container that runs $3."
Man you went and let the cat out on that one. Lee sizing wax will be more difficult to find than toilet paper in Covid season.
Man you went and let the cat out on that one. Lee sizing wax will be more difficult to find than toilet paper in Covid season.
Bolt lift for me is a sign I went too far. Typically I start below max and use a spreadsheet to calculate a spread of powder charges, up to max recommended, and look for the groups tightening or spreading. Best group is selected and if I think it can be better I'll reduce the increment value and test either side of whatever that charge was.
I realize this is the internet and sometimes target ranges are suspect
but here goes anyway. Ladder test from my .20 PPC. Yes I know it says Beggs. The document that came with the rifle says he used a .20 PPC reamer and that's what dies I use so .20 PPC it is.
Last target of the test
FWIW, when I start a test I'll zero at 100 yards then move to 200 for the test. 200, imho, is the "fine tuning knob".
I realize this is the internet and sometimes target ranges are suspect
but here goes anyway. Ladder test from my .20 PPC. Yes I know it says Beggs. The document that came with the rifle says he used a .20 PPC reamer and that's what dies I use so .20 PPC it is.
Last target of the test
FWIW, when I start a test I'll zero at 100 yards then move to 200 for the test. 200, imho, is the "fine tuning knob".
memtb
Well-Known Member
One more item to add to my "prepper" supplies. What an neverending "rabbit hole" I've dug for myself!
memtb
I put a big rock over the "Rabbit Hole" couple of decades ago. Most of my rifles shoot better than I can shoot them! I'd tried most everything I came across, neck sizing , neck turning, bullet lube on and on. Unless you're a bench rest shooter most everything that's been talked about is being OCD to the tenth degree. I understand trying to shoot to 1000 yards and beyond. But most reticles cover up more space on a target at that distance than what's being gained with this obsession! Just a thought from a grouchy old reloader. 
This is something that I have never seen anyone do at a 1k or 600 yd competition. My Smith is a HOF BR shooter and he advises against this because it is not a good thing for accuracy or pressure for that matter. Will add more fouling. In the low velocity and low temperature rimfire world this may work I have no idea.VinceMule, I know that I'm not a dedicated long range shooter/hunter and am pretty ignorant in the field of long range shooting…..but, wasn't aware of the bullet waxing concept!
Bullet waxing appears to be a very minor inconvenience that may produce huge rewards. Thanks, for "opening my eyes" this morning!
That is a load of horse hockey. We shot untold thousands of p. dogs with waxed and double-waxed Bergers and other custom-made bullets. If the barrels were not shooting bug holes, they did not go on the trip. We are benchrest shooters where 1/2" groups or smaller is the Norm. Same for hunting rifles.
The devil is in the details.
Bullet engraving pressure drops significantly with the wax, so you have to add .5g more powder as a general rule of thumb.
Boss, you should try some of this yourself, you will be getting a new gunsmith.
There is a branch of the govm't that right now uses waxed bullets on their sniper rifles, a German Ski Wax to be specific.
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I think this man has a little more experience and success than you do lol....
Talk about opening mouth and sticking in foot. This is the internet as you know, and everyone is a BR shooter.Hmmmmmmm I think I will keep Speedy as my Smith!
