Planning a 250 Savage Build - Two Barrels, Many Questions

[OutsideBill]

I just look as it as headspace. It really doesn't matter where you set it as long as you're not stretching the brass to failure when you fireform the brass. So set it how you like, just realize you're always going to have a non standard chamber after that.

However I haven't read all your posts. Is the Shaw barrel used or new? If it is new, I'd send it back to Shaw to look at. I'd say your throat is a little short, and it would be better to have the throat cut at least .020" deeper.

I like to fix things that are out of spec, and make it right. I'm not confident that the thickness of the tape you're using is going to solve your issues 100% of the time. I know you're trying to do a budget build, but you've already doubled your costs by building two different rifles. So since you're already in this deep, I'd pay to fix the throat and keep the chamber in SAAMI spec.

Both barrels were purchased from LRH members and were reported to be unfired.

I will probably set up the hunting rifle with the Shaw barrel this weekend to see what I get. I'm sure it will be well within SAAMI spec. If the fired brass looks ok, I will sight it in and see how it shoots. It doesn't have to be very accurate for a young teen to kill a deer or hog, especially since he'll be hunting where only close shots are possible. I'm more concerned about doing this safely since I'm not an experienced builder.

I'm not set up for reloading yet anyway, and I have plenty of study ahead before I start that. For now, this is strictly a factory ammo proposition, which means the Hornady 100g solution.

 

[ducky]

I will probably set up the hunting rifle with the Shaw barrel this weekend to see what I get. I'm sure it will be well within SAAMI spec. If the fired brass looks ok, I will sight it in and see how it shoots. It doesn't have to be very accurate for a young teen

Well maybe you'll be within SAAMI spec. Setting headspace longer than your go-gage isn't normally within SAAMI spec. If you dont have the tools to measure the difference in case dimensions between unfired and fired, you're just guessing. Plus the fact you're putting your grandson behind the trigger, I'd err on the cautious side. Especially with your admitted experience level.

You could take that barrel to a gunsmith with your cartridge pictured. I would guess if he has worked on a .250 Savage before it would be less than an hour to fix, and for less than $100-150. That would allow you to properly set the headspace with your go-gage, and you wouldn't have factory ammunition jambed into the lands.

 

[OutsideBill]

Well maybe you'll be within SAAMI spec. Setting headspace longer than your go-gage isn't normally within SAAMI spec. If you dont have the tools to measure the difference in case dimensions between unfired and fired, you're just guessing. Plus the fact you're putting your grandson behind the trigger, I'd err on the cautious side. Especially with your admitted experience level.

You could take that barrel to a gunsmith with your cartridge pictured. I would guess if he has worked on a .250 Savage before it would be less than an hour to fix, and for less than $100-150. That would allow you to properly set the headspace with your go-gage, and you wouldn't have factory ammunition jambed into the lands.

I'm definitely not putting my grandson behind anything dangerous. I talked to two gunsmiths about setting up the head space on this barrel. I'm going to see one of them today to work on the throat issue.

As for headspace, I'm pretty confident I can do that. I'm using my go-gauge as the gunsmiths advised. Both said I could set it to just touch the go gauge, then leave it there or back out very slightly until it's not touching, then verify that it won't close on a no-go gauge or a taped go gauge (basically standard use). One of those gunsmiths said that two layers of thin tape for the no-go is the way he sets up head space on many chambers. I measured, and two layers of tape takes the go gauge length from 1.701 to 1.705, or .004 longer. That is significantly less than the SAAMI spec's allowed variation in headspace (0.010 difference between mix and max). So, unless the go gauge is way off, adding one layer of tape to set the go and two layers to set the no-go is not going to put me even close to being outside of SAAMI spec on head space. It was during that process that I confirmed I had bullet contact.

My worry is that contact of factory bullets on the throat or lands could be serious, as in a throat that's too tight. That's really why I'm going to the gunsmith today. That's where I don't have either experience or tools to verify the gun is in spec and safe to use with this ammo. I asked the group about the bullet contact because I hate to call and ask too much of these guys on the phone. They're not in business to train me for free.

I appreciate the feedback. You're advising me in the direction I was moving, which is reassuring.

 

[OutsideBill]

I'm definitely not putting my grandson behind anything dangerous. I talked to two gunsmiths about setting up the head space on this barrel. I'm going to see one of them today to work on the throat issue.

As for headspace, I'm pretty confident I can do that. I'm using my go-gauge as the gunsmiths advised. Both said I could set it to just touch the go gauge, then leave it there or back out very slightly until it's not touching, then verify that it won't close on a no-go gauge or a taped go gauge (basically standard use). One of those gunsmiths said that two layers of thin tape for the no-go is the way he sets up head space on many chambers. I measured, and two layers of tape takes the go gauge length from 1.701 to 1.705, or .004 longer. That is significantly less than the SAAMI spec's allowed variation in headspace (0.010 difference between mix and max). So, unless the go gauge is way off, adding one layer of tape to set the go and two layers to set the no-go is not going to put me even close to being outside of SAAMI spec on head space. It was during that process that I confirmed I had bullet contact.

My worry is that contact of factory bullets on the throat or lands could be serious, as in a throat that's too tight. That's really why I'm going to the gunsmith today. That's where I don't have either experience or tools to verify the gun is in spec and safe to use with this ammo. I asked the group about the bullet contact because I hate to call and ask too much of these guys on the phone. They're not in business to train me for free.

I appreciate the feedback. You're advising me in the direction I was moving, which is reassuring.

Went to the gunsmith. He checked the throat, did the marker test, looked at the marks on the bullet under magnification, checked the distance from throat to lands, measured the amount of bullet extending from the barrel and the amount of go gauge extending from the barrel, and I'm not sure what else. Basically he concluded my go gauge and unfired ammo are almost exactly the same length and there is very little free bore. He set the headspace with the go gauge, backed it out a smidge, and locked it down. He said he could just feel the bullet starting to touch the lands at the bottom of the bolt closing. He prefers to start a new barrel with the bullet slightly into the lands, so he's happy with my setup. He also cleaned up the threads in the holes for my scope bases. He said go shoot it.

Peace of mind for an hour drive and $40.

Thanks again for the feedback and advice!

 

[ducky]

@OutsideBill, first off let me say that I never meant to imply you were intentionally or unintentionally putting your Grandson at risk. I was just thinking of who the primary user of the rifle would ultimately be. So if I came across that way, I'm sorry for that.

I'm glad you took the barrel to a GS and had things checked out. I set my rifles for hunting up different than your GS. I like to have at least 0.010-0.020" jump to the lands for the bullet I'll primarily be using. This way if I need to unload a chamber, I don't accidentally pull the bullet out of a case and dump powder inside my rifle and have a bullet stuck in the barrel. BTDT early on when I was learning to reload.

So even after I said you'd be good at first I changed my mind. I am not sure you still won't be jambed into the lands with factory ammunition as you're currently set up. There is usually enough variation in ogive on all bullets the thickness of 0.004" of tape to the back of your gage won't be enough to account for the difference. However, it's safer the way your set up now even if you get varying pressures, velocity, and accuracy until your throat wears enough to not be pushing the ogive against the lands.

So if you set the headspace forward to account for bullet ogive variations in your ammunition, you might create other issues. Depending on how far forward you move the headspace. Here are some of the things that could happen.

You could get light primer strikes and failure to fire. As the firing pin would push your case deeper into the chamber instead of igniting the powder charge. Or when you close the bolt the cartridge just goes into the chamber under inertia, and the firing pin never contacts the primer.

If it does fire you might be bulging the base of the case that isn't supported by the chamber. This will cause difficulties later on when you start reloading, and can lead to casehead seperation. Also you'll be moving the shoulder forward, stretching the brass again in another direction. So you're thinning your brass limiting case life, again. Since you more than likely don't have the tools to properly measure this, it's just better to avoid these situations.

I hope this clarifies my position and why I changed directions on you. Have fun with your journey and be safe along the way. Please post your results that you and your family get. The .250 Savage is a neat little cartridge, and a great deer round.

 

[OutsideBill]

@OutsideBill, first off let me say that I never meant to imply you were intentionally or unintentionally putting your Grandson at risk. I was just thinking of who the primary user of the rifle would ultimately be. So if I came across that way, I'm sorry for that.

I'm glad you took the barrel to a GS and had things checked out. I set my rifles for hunting up different than your GS. I like to have at least 0.010-0.020" jump to the lands for the bullet I'll primarily be using. This way if I need to unload a chamber, I don't accidentally pull the bullet out of a case and dump powder inside my rifle and have a bullet stuck in the barrel. BTDT early on when I was learning to reload.

So even after I said you'd be good at first I changed my mind. I am not sure you still won't be jambed into the lands with factory ammunition as you're currently set up. There is usually enough variation in ogive on all bullets the thickness of 0.004" of tape to the back of your gage won't be enough to account for the difference. However, it's safer the way your set up now even if you get varying pressures, velocity, and accuracy until your throat wears enough to not be pushing the ogive against the lands.

So if you set the headspace forward to account for bullet ogive variations in your ammunition, you might create other issues. Depending on how far forward you move the headspace. Here are some of the things that could happen.

You could get light primer strikes and failure to fire. As the firing pin would push your case deeper into the chamber instead of igniting the powder charge. Or when you close the bolt the cartridge just goes into the chamber under inertia, and the firing pin never contacts the primer.

If it does fire you might be bulging the base of the case that isn't supported by the chamber. This will cause difficulties later on when you start reloading, and can lead to casehead seperation. Also you'll be moving the shoulder forward, stretching the brass again in another direction. So you're thinning your brass limiting case life, again. Since you more than likely don't have the tools to properly measure this, it's just better to avoid these situations.

I hope this clarifies my position and why I changed directions on you. Have fun with your journey and be safe along the way. Please post your results that you and your family get. The .250 Savage is a neat little cartridge, and a great deer round.

ducky, no apology needed, and no offense taken. I'm new at this, and your warnings were well placed.

I believe I understand all your additional points regarding excess head space and potential negative consequences following from that. Sound advice I'm sure, and I will keep all that in mind for the next build.

My gunsmith's conclusion that my go gauge and my factory ammo were seating to almost the exact length tells me that increasing the headspace 1 or 2 thousands extra was appropriate even without the bullet contact. I'll have a better idea if that's true when I have some fired brass for comparison.

As for variations in factory ammo, that should be somewhat minimized by the fact that Hornady is really my only option right now. Hopefully both barrels will like it as I'll need to buy enough to generate a reserve of brass.

So far I have <$500 in this youth-sized rifle, not counting the scope that I pulled off my second donor Axis. If it shoots 1.5moa or better with factory ammo I'll be very pleased.

 

[ducky]

There are some variations in cartridge overall length from factory ammunition even if you're only using Hornady. This can be reduced buy buying case lots of ammunition. However, if you're buying individual boxes as you find them you are more than likely going to have variations that could be more than your stated .001-.002".

Hornady isn't your only option. HSM 100 gr SGK is available as well. However, the .250 Savage is pretty seasonal in availability, so buy it when you can.

 

[OutsideBill]

There are some variations in cartridge overall length from factory ammunition even if you're only using Hornady. This can be reduced buy buying case lots of ammunition. However, if you're buying individual boxes as you find them you are more than likely going to have variations that could be more than your stated .001-.002".

Hornady isn't your only option. HSM 100 gr SGK is available as well. However, the .250 Savage is pretty seasonal in availability, so buy it when you can.

I've seen the HSM online but don't know anything about it. Do you have any experience with it?

If the Hornady shoots even fair and the brass looks good after firing, I'll order a case or two. If it doesn't, I'll order a couple of boxes of the HSM and give it a try. One way or another, I need to buy plenty while it's available because it's only going to get harder with this choice I've made.

 

[ducky]

I've shot some .223 in the past loaded with V-max. It was good in my rifle. That's the only experience I've had with HSM. They've been manufacturing ammunition for awhile now so I'd have no issues trying them.

 

[OutsideBill]

Thought I'd make an update to this thread in case anyone checks it out later with 250 Savage or Axis build questions.

Both rifles were completed on Axis actions. One is a youth hunting rifle built on Savage youth model Axis with a Shaw sporter barrel that I picked up from a LRH member. The second is built on a Savage Axis II XP in wood stock with a Shilen heavy varmint barrel that I got from another LRH member.

Both builds were easy, straight forward, and inexpensive. In fact, they can hardly be considered builds at all. The re-barrel task is not hard, but check out the Savage shooters forum for tips on barrel removal as they have a lot of debris under the barrel nut (I believe it is media they use for texturing the barrel and action at the factory), and it can ruin the threads if you're not carefull during removal. Setting the head space is simple on Savage rifles. I ended up getting the help of a gunsmith, but he confirmed I was ok setting it with my go gauge, even though the factory Hornady ammo was initially a slightly tight fit on the Shaw barrel. Just had to back off the gauge ever so slightly to correct that. I had to do a little trigger work on the youth Axis, and open up the barrel channel on the wood Axis II, but those were not complicated tasks.

The Axis platform is easy to build on, but it is different than the Savage 10/110. The surface contact areas and lug system are not the same. It does have a more fully enclosed receiver, meaning the top isn't fully open above the ejection port like on a standard 10/110. Rather, it has more metal up top with smaller ejection port that resembles the Savage target model actions. Based on that, it appears to be more robustly built than the 10/110. Whether it is capable of the kind of top accuracy needed for long range hunting is not something I can speak to yet, but I think it has promise. I have less than $1000 in both guns combined (not counting the glass on the wood model). That was possible by finding great deals on complete Axis donor guns (the XP included a scope, and both rifles earned a $75 rebate from Savage), and great deals on barrels from LRH members. I also now have two extra barrels.

Both rifles shoot factory Hornady and HSM ammo well enough. The youth model was shooting 3-shot groups in the .9 to 1.5 inch range once it was zeroed. The wood stock model shoots slightly better (but it has better glass and a better trigger). Not much difference in the accuracy of the factory ammo other than a 1" or so shift in POI with the youth model. Neither gun has had any additional work yet to improve accuracy and they're both good enough for close-in hunting (200 yards or so) right now.

The youth model will not likely be changed much. I did a little work on the standard trigger (not an accu-trigger) to lower the pull weight and smooth it up. It needs a better scope (the XP scope is not very clear, has short eye relief, and has noticeable parralax at 100 yds). It would be worth putting a shim kit in the bolt to smooth it up, and a better trigger, if the grandson takes to it. I think he'll like the size, weight, and low recoil.

The wood stocked Axis II will likely be an ongoing project gun. I hope to get into reloading soon, and that will be the gun I use for learning, partly because 250 SAV ammo is so darned expensive and there are so few options. I will most likely bed the rifle and will be looking at a shim kit for the bolt. My hope is to make it a consistent sub-moa shooter that I can use to learn with and enjoy at the range or on a deer stand.

I'm quite pleased with these two new "nostalgia" guns, and would definitely recommend this approach to anyone looking to learn something new and create a personalized rifle on a budget.

And last, thanks to all the support (advice and materials) that I received from the LRH community, especially @std7mag and @1stpitch .

 

[std7mag]

@OutsideBill,

I was wondering just yesterday about that barrel.
Having severe sellers remorse with that one. Lol

I'll check my stash O stuff. I may have some 250 Savage cases.

Included is a picture of a target I shot with the Savage Axis II action and E.R. Shaw sporter barrel in 250 Savage. Distance is 200 meters.
Sierra HP Varmint 75gr bullet.
Hornady case.
CCI primer.
Alliant Varmint powder.
3,150fps.

Wind caught me out on the fifth shot. That's a 1" dot and 5 shots.

You should do equally or better with the Shilen.

 

[OutsideBill]

@OutsideBill,

I was wondering just yesterday about that barrel.
Having severe sellers remorse with that one. Lol

I'll check my stash O stuff. I may have some 250 Savage cases.

Included is a picture of a target I shot with the Savage Axis II action and E.R. Shaw sporter barrel in 250 Savage. Distance is 200 meters.
Sierra HP Varmint 75gr bullet.
Hornady case.
CCI primer.
Alliant Varmint powder.
3,150fps.

Wind caught me out on the fifth shot. That's a 1" dot and 5 shots.

You should do equally or better with the Shilen.

That's awesome!

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

Thought I'd make an update to this thread in case anyone checks it out later with 250 Savage or Axis build questions.

Both rifles were completed on Axis actions. One is a youth hunting rifle built on Savage youth model Axis with a Shaw sporter barrel that I picked up from a LRH member. The second is built on a Savage Axis II XP in wood stock with a Shilen heavy varmint barrel that I got from another LRH member.

Both builds were easy, straight forward, and inexpensive. In fact, they can hardly be considered builds at all. The re-barrel task is not hard, but check out the Savage shooters forum for tips on barrel removal as they have a lot of debris under the barrel nut (I believe it is media they use for texturing the barrel and action at the factory), and it can ruin the threads if you're not carefull during removal. Setting the head space is simple on Savage rifles. I ended up getting the help of a gunsmith, but he confirmed I was ok setting it with my go gauge, even though the factory Hornady ammo was initially a slightly tight fit on the Shaw barrel. Just had to back off the gauge ever so slightly to correct that. I had to do a little trigger work on the youth Axis, and open up the barrel channel on the wood Axis II, but those were not complicated tasks.

The Axis platform is easy to build on, but it is different than the Savage 10/110. The surface contact areas and lug system are not the same. It does have a more fully enclosed receiver, meaning the top isn't fully open above the ejection port like on a standard 10/110. Rather, it has more metal up top with smaller ejection port that resembles the Savage target model actions. Based on that, it appears to be more robustly built than the 10/110. Whether it is capable of the kind of top accuracy needed for long range hunting is not something I can speak to yet, but I think it has promise. I have less than $1000 in both guns combined (not counting the glass on the wood model). That was possible by finding great deals on complete Axis donor guns (the XP included a scope, and both rifles earned a $75 rebate from Savage), and great deals on barrels from LRH members. I also now have two extra barrels.

Both rifles shoot factory Hornady and HSM ammo well enough. The youth model was shooting 3-shot groups in the .9 to 1.5 inch range once it was zeroed. The wood stock model shoots slightly better (but it has better glass and a better trigger). Not much difference in the accuracy of the factory ammo other than a 1" or so shift in POI with the youth model. Neither gun has had any additional work yet to improve accuracy and they're both good enough for close-in hunting (200 yards or so) right now.

The youth model will not likely be changed much. I did a little work on the standard trigger (not an accu-trigger) to lower the pull weight and smooth it up. It needs a better scope (the XP scope is not very clear, has short eye relief, and has noticeable parralax at 100 yds). It would be worth putting a shim kit in the bolt to smooth it up, and a better trigger, if the grandson takes to it. I think he'll like the size, weight, and low recoil.

The wood stocked Axis II will likely be an ongoing project gun. I hope to get into reloading soon, and that will be the gun I use for learning, partly because 250 SAV ammo is so darned expensive and there are so few options. I will most likely bed the rifle and will be looking at a shim kit for the bolt. My hope is to make it a consistent sub-moa shooter that I can use to learn with and enjoy at the range or on a deer stand.

I'm quite pleased with these two new "nostalgia" guns, and would definitely recommend this approach to anyone looking to learn something new and create a personalized rifle on a budget.

And last, thanks to all the support (advice and materials) that I received from the LRH community, especially @std7mag and @1stpitch .

No Pics ? lol

 

[OutsideBill]

No Pics ? lol

Here's the youth model. It's the only pic I have with it complete. Nothing special to look at now. Maybe I'll get to post an update with a boy and deer in a few weeks.