Planning a 250 Savage Build - Two Barrels, Many Questions

[std7mag]

Have you been able to stabilize the 120 grain bullets? I know the higher velocities you're pushing will make a difference, but the information I've seen on bullet makers' web sites and such seem to indicate 100 to 110 grains are about the limit on stabilizing with a 1:10 twist. If you can stabilize a traditional 120 grain bullet, I wonder how heavy a copper solid you could push? I think it's just a matter of time until most public hunting spots are forced into that.

Between the two rifles, I have generated probably 140 rounds of once fired brass. As long as I can get factory ammo and keep generating a supply of brass, I would prefer to do that. I would like to avoid having to worry about head stamp mismatch, especially since these rifles are to be used by multiple family members.

Bill,

I shoot the 120gr Sierra HPBT GameKings from all my 25 caliber rifles.
My Savage Axis II in 250 Savage also.

Want a round for deer that will blow your socks off?
250 Savage with 115gr Berger VLD over a charge of RL17.

 

[OutsideBill]

Bill,

I shoot the 120gr Sierra HPBT GameKings from all my 25 caliber rifles.
My Savage Axis II in 250 Savage also.

Want a round for deer that will blow your socks off?
250 Savage with 115gr Berger VLD over a charge of RL17.

That's great to hear! Did you have to have the throat pushed back to allow those longer bullets, or have you been able to do that with a SAAMI spec chambering? I've been concerned that some combination of throat depth (freebore space), relatively slow 1:10 twist, and possibly OAL limitations would keep me from getting to that 115 to 120 grain range.

Have you been able to check muzzle velocities on that 115gr round with RL17? I'm curious how fast you are pushing those.

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

Some data for u on a 115. These are at the low saami spec for pressure so can be easily and safely surpassed.

Im guessing hes gettin plenty more juice with RL17.

 

[OutsideBill]

Some data for u on a 115. These are at the low saami spec for pressure so can be easily and safely surpassed.

Im guessing hes gettin plenty more juice with RL17.

That's a pretty good starting point for 115 grain bullets. I wish I was in a position to start reloading today.

 

[std7mag]

That's great to hear! Did you have to have the throat pushed back to allow those longer bullets, or have you been able to do that with a SAAMI spec chambering? I've been concerned that some combination of throat depth (freebore space), relatively slow 1:10 twist, and possibly OAL limitations would keep me from getting to that 115 to 120 grain range.

Have you been able to check muzzle velocities on that 115gr round with RL17? I'm curious how fast you are pushing those.

The 120s push into the casing some.

It's not as bad with the 115gr Bergers. Shorter than the 120s and they like to be up close and personal to the lands.
Note, being 0.005" off the lands does increase the recoil impulse vs say the 115gr NBT at 0.02" off the lands.

With the 100gr NBT & up bullets, it's more of a 100 yards or under rifle.

The 90gr Sierra BlitzKing, now those are deadly on coyotes out to about 400 yards so far.

I've shot the 75gr Sierra HP Varmint out to 400 yards with good accuracy also.

I'm running a 24" sporter barrel.

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

Whats ur COL with the 115 and 120?

 

[OutsideBill]

The 120s push into the casing some.

It's not as bad with the 115gr Bergers. Shorter than the 120s and they like to be up close and personal to the lands.
Note, being 0.005" off the lands does increase the recoil impulse vs say the 115gr NBT at 0.02" off the lands.

With the 100gr NBT & up bullets, it's more of a 100 yards or under rifle.

The 90gr Sierra BlitzKing, now those are deadly on coyotes out to about 400 yards so far.

I've shot the 75gr Sierra HP Varmint out to 400 yards with good accuracy also.

I'm running a 24" sporter barrel.

Why would the 100gr and up be only 100 yards and under?

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

That's great to hear! Did you have to have the throat pushed back to allow those longer bullets, or have you been able to do that with a SAAMI spec chambering? I've been concerned that some combination of throat depth (freebore space), relatively slow 1:10 twist, and possibly OAL limitations would keep me from getting to that 115 to 120 grain range.

Have you been able to check muzzle velocities on that 115gr round with RL17? I'm curious how fast you are pushing those.

I think that you may have been a lil misled on the whole twist/bullet weight thing. We might have accidentally blown it out of proportion.

1:10 has been the standard twist in 25 cals for around 90 years. Up until only a short time ago, under 10 yrs, there was not more than a handful of bullets requiring even 1:9 twist.

To make it a lil clearer, unless a bullet says 1:9, 8 etc required, itll shoot in 1:10s. Might not shoot well but thats why we experiment right?

 

[OutsideBill]

I think that you may have been a lil misled on the whole twist/bullet weight thing. We might have accidentally blown it out of proportion.

1:10 has been the standard twist in 25 cals for around 90 years. Up until only a short time ago, under 10 yrs, there was not more than a handful of bullets requiring even 1:9 twist.

To make it a lil clearer, unless a bullet says 1:9, 8 etc required, itll shoot in 1:10s. Might not shoot well but thats why we experiment right?

Yes, I understand and agree. The Savage model 1899 in particular was built with smaller, faster bullets in mind. They worked fine in the old 1:14 twist. But we do now have heavier, longer bullets available. I would like to take advantage of their benefits and get more flexibility out of my rifle if I can.

Barnes says on their website that the 115gr TSX-FB requires a 1:9 twist. They don't list the necessary twist for their 110gr TSX-BT, so I'm guessing it will be ok in the standard 1:10. That's probably the threshold area for copper solids. Using the Berger stability calculator, I can see that their 115gr VLD is marginally stable even at velocities above 3000fps.

I can live with the realities of the 250 Savage. A fast moving 100gr bullet will kill deer and hogs quite a ways out. But I do get a little excited when I read about guys who are successfully loading for heavier, longer bullets and higher velocities. There's a difference in performance potential between a 100gr bullet and a 120gr just due to BC and retained energy potential. If it can be done without having to go to a 250 AI or other major chamber modifications, I'm all for it. If it can't, I'll live within the limits of this great little round.

I'm looking forward to learning what I can do with my setup.

 

[std7mag]

Why would the 100gr and up be only 100 yards and under?

Mostly just my preference for "big game" bullets.
I use 100gr & up for deer.
I try to keep the distance down to help ensure expansion.

The 90 - 75gr bullets that I have are varmint bullets.

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

. Using the Berger stability calculator, I can see that their 115gr VLD is marginally stable even at velocities above ...

There's a difference in performance potential between a 100gr bullet and a 120gr just due to BC and retained energy potential. If it can be done without having to go to a 250 AI or other major chamber modifications, I'm all for it. ..

How far ya lookin to hunt?

 

[OutsideBill]

How far ya lookin to hunt?

Well, my longest deer kill is about 328 yards with a .243. I would shoot further with my 6.5CM under ideal conditions. The limiting factor with that setup is me, not the rifle or ammunition. I don't know what the 250 SAV is really capable of, but I like the idea of stretching its legs. Being able to confidently shoot deer and hogs out to 300-400 yards would be great. If I need more performance (highly unlikely), I have other options at the ready.

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

Well, my longest deer kill is about 328 yards with a .243. I would shoot further with my 6.5CM under ideal conditions. The limiting factor with that setup is me, not the rifle or ammunition. I don't know what the 250 SAV is really capable of, but I like the idea of stretching its legs. Being able to confidently shoot deer and hogs out to 300-400 yards would be great. If I need more performance (highly unlikely), I have other options at the ready.

Easily! Shootin cup n core bullets ur goals are easily made. I wouldnt bout stress needin the heavies unless you just want to run them.

In that case Id think hard about lengthening the throat. Jus take a bullet you like, seat it to a depth that still has a bit of the boattail junction situated below the neck, and tell the smith I want to chamber this round with with it eg. touching the lands, or 0.005, .0020 etc. jump to the lands. And then presto youre throated to shoot heavies.

You mentioned the 115 TSX earlier, that bullet is not any benefit to this caliber that I can see. Theres no way this lil thing is gunna destroy any of the TSX, ETip, GMX etc. (Ive shot em into solid rock at 100yds from 257Wby w/ 3500 fps muzzle velocity and they weighed nearly all their weight)
Having a heavy (=loong) one in 250sav will only make it slower, and itll open up lots slower. The BC on the 115TSX is not any better than a sleek 100 grainer because that pill as its flat based, .335bc. Vs 100TTSX .357bc.

Matter of fact, to me the only heavy bullets with BC enough to truly matter in extending range enough to offset the slower speeds at your ranges are the 115Vld and the 110Eldx. Theyre in the .46-.47 range. Thats a huge difference and theyre designed to open at lower velocities. Once ur plannin on 500yd n beyond ya need BC (or lots of speed) n these are money.

The 110Interbond and Accubonds are both bonded bullets so will open slower and with these speeds not any benefir for deer, giant hogs, they make some sense. Theyre both .399 according to AB.

The 117 Gameking. 117 Hornady btsp, 117SST, Speer 120spbt etc are all in the .390ish range. A 100 grainer in the .350 range movin 200fps faster will beat them to 400 and get more violent expansion. Not sayin a slower one isnt gunna kill but ur talkin about maximizing ur effectiveness. I view most of the heavier cup n cores as more of an improvement in the brush n timber where they can help penetration over say a 100gr speer boattail for example.
The goes both ways answer being a 100gr Partition.

I care not for energy numbers, faster a expanding bullet hits the nastier it self destructs and the bigger the damage to vital tissue. While the energy psi of a Mike Tyson punch is way above a 22l
LR, thousands of deer die every year due to taking one of those to the brain.

Sorry for the novel, i spend a bit of time thinkin about this stuff hahaha.

 

[OutsideBill]

Easily! Shootin cup n core bullets ur goals are easily made. I wouldnt bout stress needin the heavies unless you just want to run them.

In that case Id think hard about lengthening the throat. Jus take a bullet you like, seat it to a depth that still has a bit of the boattail junction situated below the neck, and tell the smith I want to chamber this round with with it eg. touching the lands, or 0.005, .0020 etc. jump to the lands. And then presto youre throated to shoot heavies.

You mentioned the 115 TSX earlier, that bullet is not any benefit to this caliber that I can see. Theres no way this lil thing is gunna destroy any of the TSX, ETip, GMX etc. (Ive shot em into solid rock at 100yds from 257Wby w/ 3500 fps muzzle velocity and they weighed nearly all their weight)
Having a heavy (=loong) one in 250sav will only make it slower, and itll open up lots slower. The BC on the 115TSX is not any better than a sleek 100 grainer because that pill as its flat based, .335bc. Vs 100TTSX .357bc.

Matter of fact, to me the only heavy bullets with BC enough to truly matter in extending range enough to offset the slower speeds at your ranges are the 115Vld and the 110Eldx. Theyre in the .46-.47 range. Thats a huge difference and theyre designed to open at lower velocities. Once ur plannin on 500yd n beyond ya need BC (or lots of speed) n these are money.

The 110Interbond and Accubonds are both bonded bullets so will open slower and with these speeds not any benefir for deer, giant hogs, they make some sense. Theyre both .399 according to AB.

The 117 Gameking. 117 Hornady btsp, 117SST, Speer 120spbt etc are all in the .390ish range. A 100 grainer in the .350 range movin 200fps faster will beat them to 400 and get more violent expansion. Not sayin a slower one isnt gunna kill but ur talkin about maximizing ur effectiveness. I view most of the heavier cup n cores as more of an improvement in the brush n timber where they can help penetration over say a 100gr speer boattail for example.
The goes both ways answer being a 100gr Partition.

I care not for energy numbers, faster a expanding bullet hits the nastier it self destructs and the bigger the damage to vital tissue. While the energy psi of a Mike Tyson punch is way above a 22l
LR, thousands of deer die every year due to taking one of those to the brain.

Sorry for the novel, i spend a bit of time thinkin about this stuff hahaha.

Excellent info. Thanks for thinking about it and sharing. I'm trying to take it all in.

I'm really only interested in the solid coppers as I believe they are the future, much like non-toxic shot in public duck and dove hunting areas.

Your take on the 115VLD and 110ELDX is encouraging. I think that's where I'd like to focus my efforts. We'll see what the rifle gives me.