ICANHITHIMMAN
Well-Known Member
Well I thought it was but I can see your point
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Long Range thick skin bullets
- Thread starter stenger
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Well I thought it was but I can see your point
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I have only shot one moose in my time hunting so far. I was shooting my 7mm AM loaded with a 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3400 fps. The bull was at 150 yards on the first shot which was just behind the shoulder broadside. The bull flinched a bit and started walking with no sign of reaction. Second shot was again through both lungs, with no sign of hit at all other then knocking the dust off him.
Third shot was after a decent wait and I pinned both shoulders and be fell on his nose. We gave him 15 minutes and walked up to him. He was still alive and needed a finisher. Was this bullet failure, hardly. Both shots through the lungs stopped just under the hide on the off side. The shot through both shoulders was found stopped just past the offside shoulder bone in the shoulder meat.
Tissue damage, perfect. There as a fist diameter wound channel with both rounds through the lungs. It was straight and consistant on both lots of damage. Same with the shoulder hit but not as dramatic through the chest cavity.
I was perfectly happy with the bullets performance. What surprised me was how slow the metabolism of these animals is. That and they have HUGE lung capacity, HUGE blood supply and very low metabolism. This adds up to them being able to take serious amounts of vital damage and still it takes them a lot of time to actually die.
Now, from what I have heard, moose are not terribly tough like a bull elk can be to put down or a full rut whitetail can be from time to time to kill. Moose seem to hurt easily but can be a pain to kill, or at least can take some time to kill quickly. Like everything, some fall on their nose at the first shot, some do not, it should not be expected.
Three shots to kill a big moose does not sound terrible to me personally. Especially when most of us will keep shooting as quickly as possible on heavier game just to do as much damage to the vitals as possible in the short time we have when shooting at big game.
Personally, the choice to go with the 250 gr is a poor decision as likely the 300 gr at Lapua velocities would have performed perfectly.
For water buff, I assume this we are not talking Asianic and not cape buffalo. If Cape, Not sure where its even legal to hunt them with a 338 but I am sure it is somewhere. If I were to do that or have a customer come to me asking for my opinion on which bullet to use it would be the 285 gr Barnes TSX or the 270 gr Swift A-Frame.
There comes a time when you have to chose between long range performance and big game stopping performance. If you want to combine the two, its a good idea to step up in caliber. At long range on heavy game, even the mighty 338 Lapua is not excessively powerful.
Still, if the 338 Lapua was the chambering being used, I would start with one of the above bullets. After seeing recently what a bullet with a BC of .425 did at slightly over 1000 yards, I think one would be much better off getting a bullet that WILL get the job done no matter what, then test it and learn what it will and will not do at longer ranges. The results will be much better that way. Again, its difficult to get ONE bullet that will expand well at long range, soft impacts as well as hold together and penetrate well on close range, high velocity, hard impacts.
To get this, there are compromises that have to be made. Anytime there is a compromise, there is an OPPORTUNITY, for something to happen that someone could describe as a failure when in fact it really is not.
On heavy game, prepare for the close range hard impact and make due at longer ranges. This may mean you give up some extreme range distance with the combo but the alternative is far less acceptable.
Third shot was after a decent wait and I pinned both shoulders and be fell on his nose. We gave him 15 minutes and walked up to him. He was still alive and needed a finisher. Was this bullet failure, hardly. Both shots through the lungs stopped just under the hide on the off side. The shot through both shoulders was found stopped just past the offside shoulder bone in the shoulder meat.
Tissue damage, perfect. There as a fist diameter wound channel with both rounds through the lungs. It was straight and consistant on both lots of damage. Same with the shoulder hit but not as dramatic through the chest cavity.
I was perfectly happy with the bullets performance. What surprised me was how slow the metabolism of these animals is. That and they have HUGE lung capacity, HUGE blood supply and very low metabolism. This adds up to them being able to take serious amounts of vital damage and still it takes them a lot of time to actually die.
Now, from what I have heard, moose are not terribly tough like a bull elk can be to put down or a full rut whitetail can be from time to time to kill. Moose seem to hurt easily but can be a pain to kill, or at least can take some time to kill quickly. Like everything, some fall on their nose at the first shot, some do not, it should not be expected.
Three shots to kill a big moose does not sound terrible to me personally. Especially when most of us will keep shooting as quickly as possible on heavier game just to do as much damage to the vitals as possible in the short time we have when shooting at big game.
Personally, the choice to go with the 250 gr is a poor decision as likely the 300 gr at Lapua velocities would have performed perfectly.
For water buff, I assume this we are not talking Asianic and not cape buffalo. If Cape, Not sure where its even legal to hunt them with a 338 but I am sure it is somewhere. If I were to do that or have a customer come to me asking for my opinion on which bullet to use it would be the 285 gr Barnes TSX or the 270 gr Swift A-Frame.
There comes a time when you have to chose between long range performance and big game stopping performance. If you want to combine the two, its a good idea to step up in caliber. At long range on heavy game, even the mighty 338 Lapua is not excessively powerful.
Still, if the 338 Lapua was the chambering being used, I would start with one of the above bullets. After seeing recently what a bullet with a BC of .425 did at slightly over 1000 yards, I think one would be much better off getting a bullet that WILL get the job done no matter what, then test it and learn what it will and will not do at longer ranges. The results will be much better that way. Again, its difficult to get ONE bullet that will expand well at long range, soft impacts as well as hold together and penetrate well on close range, high velocity, hard impacts.
To get this, there are compromises that have to be made. Anytime there is a compromise, there is an OPPORTUNITY, for something to happen that someone could describe as a failure when in fact it really is not.
On heavy game, prepare for the close range hard impact and make due at longer ranges. This may mean you give up some extreme range distance with the combo but the alternative is far less acceptable.
stenger
Well-Known Member
I have bullet pics
stenger
Well-Known Member
Second bullet
D.Camilleri
Well-Known Member
I just got done butchering my deer. The bullet entered in the on side shoulder totally shattering it. It exited through the meat on the off side shoulder missing the bone and coming to rest under the hide. This was a 300 pound muley so total penetration would be estimated at 14 to 16 inches. All in all, I am very happy with the performance of the 300 gr Berger. It actually looks better than my 225 accubonds that I have recovered from similar shots. I wouldn't hesitate to use this bullet on a moose. I just don't think the 250 grain has enough reserve weight to get the penetration needed for an animal as large as a moose.
stenger
Well-Known Member
Ok first and second shot were behind the ribs on a hard quartering away shot bullets entered had approx eight inches of penetration then failed no bones hit. Bullets did not make it to the diaphragm. Pic one is this bullet. Pic two was a neck shot side of neck penetration was approx 6 inches then stopped. 250 berger OTM at 2915 FPS.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
This might have been brought up already, but has the OP tried the Berger Target bullets over the hunting versions? They have a thicker jacket than the hunting versions.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Must have been one ugly hole for a few inches! That isn't much penetration for the one that is supposed to be the thick jacket version. I might add that taking that angle shot at a moose with a thin skinned bullet isn't the best idea! Was that a follow up?
So what killed the moose?.......Rich
Well I would say that the bullet didnt 100% fail. It still killed the Moose. Sometimes weird things happen with bullets that can be hard to explain or understand. If a human makes it, sooner or later, it is bound to not perform right. I have been lucky enough to have never had this happen with any bullet that I have had ever used (knock on wood).
I do have to say that with the title of this thread and the content of the first post, this is the most mature thread on this subject that I have seen.
I do have to say that with the title of this thread and the content of the first post, this is the most mature thread on this subject that I have seen.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
On a heavy quartering shot I personally would not expect that bullet to make it to the goodies on a large moose, the 250 has so little shank when the nose peels back and the bullet starts opening there's not much reserve steam. The bullets look like they opened like they should have, just to much animal to get through for that bullet at that impact speed. Probably would have gotten more penetration if they'd been shot out of a 338 Win at that range or the shot had been at long range with a slower impact velocity.
Does not look like a bullet failure to me, they look like a lot of Berger chunks I've found or poured out of animal, with that much frontal area and a bullet that opens aggressively after a few inches of penetration with a close range hit on that kind of animal the bullet functioned correctly, just not the correct shot placement for that bullet at that impact velocity and range.
Does not look like a bullet failure to me, they look like a lot of Berger chunks I've found or poured out of animal, with that much frontal area and a bullet that opens aggressively after a few inches of penetration with a close range hit on that kind of animal the bullet functioned correctly, just not the correct shot placement for that bullet at that impact velocity and range.
stenger
Well-Known Member
A bullet splitting into two pieces is a failure. I feel that if berger is going to market hunting bullets they should have information available as to what game the bullet is intended for. At least Nosler has a generic guide as to what game the bullet is designed to harvest. Shame on me for not knowing better. Shame on berger for lack of information someone could have been hurt. The pics have been posted I feel that the bullet pics are an obvious bullet failure. It retained no weight and that's really bad. Make your own conclusion.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
i don't think berger ever marketed the otm as a hunting bullet? Also, the bullet fragments that you found are very typical of berger performance. I agree that 6-8" isn't much penetration, but i don't know that my first two shots at a moose would be at that angle with any bullet........rich
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
The marketing says they will go 2-3 inches then loose 40-85% of it's weight, any non bonded bullets can and will spit the core because nothing is holding it there, I actually prefer it to do that but I put the bullet behind the shoulder and it does all that in the vitals.
Direct from the Berger web site, there is no hunting data on the OTM, any hunting data is from trial and error on the loaders part.
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13" to 15" long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don't go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-441-7200.
Direct from the Berger web site, there is no hunting data on the OTM, any hunting data is from trial and error on the loaders part.
The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13" to 15" long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don't go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-441-7200.
stenger
Well-Known Member
Agreed I spoke out of line and stand corrected. Berger did only market them as a tactical bullet. I wonder if failure would have been worse with a hunting berger due to the thinner jacket.
