Long Range thick skin bullets

[Pdvdh]

More drama please...

 

[benchracer]

Pictures and detailed information may yet prove otherwise, but I am inclined to view this as a hat rack malfunction rather than a bullet failure.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I am just getting the reports back from Alaska now. They got the moose took three shots. 338 lapua mag at 2900 fps. I was advised that the bullets split in half and lost penetration. No war is intended just giving a report from the field. This guy wants to shoot a water buffalo with this rifle and is unhappy with the bullets results. I have no experience with game of this size. Looking for a bullet that can keep some long range ability but perform on big animals.

So just to be clear, I am picking this apart. I think you got yourself into a situation by not gathering all the facts before posting the info. From what you have reported thus far, the Bergers worked as the animal was harvested. The bullet may not have produced the bang flop results popularized on TV adds or in hunting shows, but they still worked. Remember we are talking about a huge animal and a high adrenaline hunting situation, that no doubt if your friend is not a resident of Alaska cost some very big money! With what we know at this point, there is no reason to assume that the first round did not kill the animal and the subconscious fear of lost money or trophy did not come into play, with regard to him firing the subsequent 2 rounds.

What we don't know and still remains unclear is what bullet was it? The OTM, Hybrid or the tactical....... I will admit I am a Berger bullet fan and have never experienced any of these situations myself. I know the bullets differences and there uses, I do use other bullets myself and would have chosen to load a Barnes for the ranges and animals your friend just experienced.

 

[D.Camilleri]

I know this discussion is about 250 gr Bergers and while I only shoot the 300 gr from my 338 ultra, the performance can vary. Here is a picture of a big muley that I just harvested a few days ago with my closest shot to date, 80 yards. 300 gr otm @ 2830. Bullet didn't exit, but a caliber hole was found in the off shoulder and I might find a piece of jacket in the meat when I butcher it. Entrance hole was caliber and destruction internally was extreme. For what it is worth, buck didn't even flinch, DRT, same result as a big bodied bull elk last year at 550 yards, fastest DRT on an elk that I have ever seen. Both of these shots were rib shots.

 

[angus-5024]

I'm willing to bet that ICANHITHIMMAN was right. I live in central B.C where moose hunting is pretty common. Out of al the moose I have seen shot, the only ones that go down fast are hit in the CNS.; Guides will always tell you to keep shooting because they don't care about meat, they want that moose to die somewhere other than a swamp.
I'd bet that if left alone for another minute that moose would have laid down and died.

As for Buffalo, he needs a bonded bullet.

 

[elkaholic]

For whatever its worth, I shot a 44" Shiras, which is by no means an Alaskan moose, but a large animal nevertheless. I shot him at 400 yards with my 195 SXR's which I will readily admit is not a Moose bullet. This moose lived 1/2 mile from my house and I knew what the shot would likely be. I intentionally stayed away from the shoulder but just behind. I was shooting a 30" barreled 300 RUM with a muzzle velocity of 3350' so the impact velocity was around 2900'. The moose was on a ridgetop with a steep ravine well with his reach. The first shot he never moved but I was sure of a good hit. I shot again and he took a step or two. I shot the third and fourth rounds because the last thing I wanted to do was to pack him out of that hole when I could get my quad to right where he was. The fourth shot dropped him. When I gutted him out, there was an approx. 5-6" group right behind his shoulder. His heart and lungs looked like he had inhaled a grenade! None of the bullets made it past the far rib cage, but all traveled through the vitals. My point is, moose are tough, and as the above poster said, any one of the shots would probably have killed him in short time. I have also seen a few elk do this, but not to that extent. I will let everyone else decide whether or not a Berger is a moose bullet!. By the way, my attempt at humor (above) was not an attack on any bullet or person in particular. It's just that I have seen so many of these bullet discussions get ridiculous over the years......rich

 

[stenger]

All I can say is I use Bergers a lot and I am very happy. When used on this moose penetration was lacking and the bullets split in half bullets shot into heavy game should not spilt in half. Two people are not happy the guy who shot, and the guide. This guy has shot just about every big game animal including grizzly he has never had a problem but the first animal shot with the Bergers and he was calling me about the bullets. He was using barnes bullets but we switched bullets for this hunt in an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC. I am writing this with twenty years of reloading and long range hunting experience. I think berger makes an outstanding bullet but I wanted to pass on the info so this does not happen to anyone else. Just might want to re-think using a berger on moose. If it works for you then shoot away. The bullet was a 250 OTM used specifically for the thicker jacket. When I get pics ill post them.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

All I can say is I use Bergers a lot and I am very happy. When used on this moose penetration was lacking and the bullets split in half bullets shot into heavy game should not spilt in half. Two people are not happy the guy who shot, and the guide. This guy has shot just about every big game animal including grizzly he has never had a problem but the first animal shot with the Bergers and he was calling me about the bullets. He was using barnes bullets but we switched bullets for this hunt in an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC. I am writing this with twenty years of reloading and long range hunting experience. I think berger makes an outstanding bullet but I wanted to pass on the info so this does not happen to anyone else. Just might want to re-think using a berger on moose. If it works for you then shoot away. The bullet was a 250 OTM used specifically for the thicker jacket. When I get pics ill post them.

If the bullets broke in half, that almost sounds like no expansion resulting in tumbling. Bullet pictures would be great. Wound pics would be nice too.

 

[Pdvdh]

This guy has shot just about every big game animal including grizzly he has never had a problem but the first animal shot with the Bergers and he was calling me about the bullets. He was using Barnes bullets but we switched bullets for this hunt in an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC.

Just might want to re-think using a Berger on moose. If it works for you then shoot away. The bullet was a 250 OTM used specifically for the thicker jacket. When I get pics ill post them.

The Berger bullets are at the opposite end of the bullet toughness scale from the Barnes monolithic bullets. The Barnes TSX might retain close to 100% of its original weight, while the Berger could fragment and shrapnel in solid muscle hits so much that it may be difficult to find any large pieces of bullet. If your buddy is used to shooting large game with Barnes bullets, then he may have employed similar shot placement, and expected similar on-game performance from the Berger. He may have selected an initial aiming point far better suited for the Barnes TSX than for a highly frangible Berger at a relatively close range/high speed impact. At the minimum, it wouldn't be surprising that you'd get a call shortly after he compared the Berger wound channel to prior experiences with a Barnes TSX wound channel.

These bullet performance Threads draw a lot of attention and are always interesting and often educational. Lots of members will appreciate your sharing any wound or bullet photos your buddy may have taken, with whatever additional description he can provide of the three separate shots.

 

[elkaholic]

All I can say is I use Bergers a lot and I am very happy. When used on this moose penetration was lacking and the bullets split in half bullets shot into heavy game should not spilt in half. Two people are not happy the guy who shot, and the guide. This guy has shot just about every big game animal including grizzly he has never had a problem but the first animal shot with the Bergers and he was calling me about the bullets. He was using barnes bullets but we switched bullets for this hunt in an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC. I am writing this with twenty years of reloading and long range hunting experience. I think berger makes an outstanding bullet but I wanted to pass on the info so this does not happen to anyone else. Just might want to re-think using a berger on moose. If it works for you then shoot away. The bullet was a 250 OTM used specifically for the thicker jacket. When I get pics ill post them.

Stenger....I wasn't suggesting that any of your buddies shots would have brought down the moose but was referring to my situation. I don't have enough info to make a judgement about his......Rich

 

[stenger]

He said he has all three bullets. As soon as I get them ill post.

There is some great discussion on this

Very interesting

Thanks.

 

[badandy970]

I love these thread and was like others refraining but I have lost my self control lol. I am gonna chime in now. Granted both these situations at on brown bears not moose. So the first bear I killed was with a 30.06 and a 168 Amax. One shot at 10 yards full on charge by a 8'11" bear. Shot was mid chest like I said running straight at me. Had just enough time to get my gun up and fire once it was dead before it stopped sliding ending up right at my feet. Haha needless to say I needed clean drawers.

Second bear I was out with a buddy on another bear hunt. We saw two bears working down a beach about a mile or so out. Got the boat around the bend from them down wind and made our stock to try and beat them to a rocky point. As we were making our way to the beach I told my buddy when we get up there we have to kill this bear on the beach if he gets up in the trees we at screwed, (super thick and bears everywhere). So he says well if I shoot and it runs you shoot too. Well we get to the point wind is in our face bears 30 yards away. He nods he wants to take it and he shoots it blows out and starts running I shoot twice and he shoots again. So four shots all on the shoulder with 338's. I was shooting reloads in both situations 168 Amax in one and 250 game kings in the second he was shooting factory loads with a Barnes bullet I believe. His bear was much smaller and took 4 we'll placed shots.

So I guess its kind of a crap shoot, sometimes things don't work out the way you think they will.

 

[elkaholic]

I love these thread and was like others refraining but I have lost my self control lol. I am gonna chime in now. Granted both these situations at on brown bears not moose. So the first bear I killed was with a 30.06 and a 168 Amax. One shot at 10 yards full on charge by a 8'11" bear. Shot was mid chest like I said running straight at me. Had just enough time to get my gun up and fire once it was dead before it stopped sliding ending up right at my feet. Haha needless to say I needed clean drawers.

Second bear I was out with a buddy on another bear hunt. We saw two bears working down a beach about a mile or so out. Got the boat around the bend from them down wind and made our stock to try and beat them to a rocky point. As we were making our way to the beach I told my buddy when we get up there we have to kill this bear on the beach if he gets up in the trees we at screwed, (super thick and bears everywhere). So he says well if I shoot and it runs you shoot too. Well we get to the point wind is in our face bears 30 yards away. He nods he wants to take it and he shoots it blows out and starts running I shoot twice and he shoots again. So four shots all on the shoulder with 338's. I was shooting reloads in both situations 168 Amax in one and 250 game kings in the second he was shooting factory loads with a Barnes bullet I believe. His bear was much smaller and took 4 we'll placed shots.

So I guess its kind of a crap shoot, sometimes things don't work out the way you think they will.

How did the gamekings perform? Did you recover any.......Rich

 

[D.Camilleri]

I love these type of threads also. Sometimes it is impossible to know why a bullet works so well one time and performs terribly the next. Examining the wound channel does however give a clue. If the bullet doesn't make it to the vitals, that is in my opinion a failure, but if it does massive amounts of damage to the vitals and the animal doesn't go right down, then what would you say then? There is a fine line on what bullet design is best. I have shot bull elk with 250 gr partitions that did ample damage to the shoulder on the entrance, but the frontal portion of the bullet came apart in the shoulder only leaving the shank to penetrate to the vitals. Not my preference, but the bull died. Another example was with a 225 gr Barnes X that hit a big mule deer through both lungs at 550 yards. The deer ran off. I finally found it the next day and when I gutted the deer I found that the bullet penciled through without causing any tissue damage at all. With the Berger, I believe that heaviest possible bullet for caliber works well to make sure you have a good chance at good penetration on the close shots and also drives deep on the longer shots. I have a very hard time deciding what bullet to have in my gun when hunting in Grizzly country, because a bullet failure could be very painful or worse.