Long range bullets at close range

[fordy]

That was the plan! memtb

Gday memtb
The 270 gr weight Barnes pill is a good one & that & 300 were our staples on buff the 350 useless & experimented with so many others
The ease & consistency of them just made to much sense & they just couldn't be shifted from the number 1 pill

Then ————— na I'm done well for now

On elephant I think I get you guys are taking the Mickey as the Barnes will kill once again but I'll shut up

In all seriousness The 270 Barnes will serve you very well on a lot of critters & on your 350 limit it's going to take you a bit to get the itch to try something else which is cool

Stay safe & shoot straight

Cheers

 

[memtb]

Thanks for the reply
I mean no disrespect in the following to you or others so please step back a little first & analysis of what I'm saying or trying to say as I also have trouble from time to time or please ask so I can hopefully clarify
I basically come from the point of what we can do / use to lesson the chance of a less than ideal result happening & with the utmost respect I don't care how good everyone believes they can place your shot with consistency I say no one can even a gold medal Olympic shooter has a bad day now & then

Keep shooting your frangible & erratic results will come & it will happen but I hope it doesn't to you but I guarantee it will happen to someone ( other brands will fail to give 100% perfection also but not as high as with the following)

Especially up close & on high resistance which I didn't give a number to initially ( my first paragraph to you ) but you have answered this like I used to think was a unreal pill design & energy dump was my go to method until eventually the penny dropped

It was our lack of control in a environment that is outside of our control & thats animal behaviour & a animal that's surprised / alarmed or even in the rut are unpredictable & while most of the time we will get our shot off when we want & the animal doesn't move it will move if Murphy is about & it does happen then add human deficiency @ either self control due to last day of a safari or your legal light of the season or understanding the critter is actually quartered more than we believe let alone environmental factors

So now we will get into a bit of the nuts & bolts on why we will see less than ideal results & please step back once again & analysing what has been seen on a huge number of critters to come to these conclusions but I also am still searching for a pill to cover more bases so I've got no one pill does all for everyone/everything

So your energy dump pill stays inside the critter on perfect broadside berger if you want but it's not specific just a energy dump analogy I'm putting up broadly speaking is destined to fail & eventually will

Example We have 2 foot of penertration where the pill will be under the hide on the offside now due to the critter's behaviour or our lack of understanding the critter was quartered more than we thought or spun on a dime as we were sending the shot on its way & our required penertration goes from 2 foot to 3
Now our pill is a foot short & basically one lung uneffected & a lot of critters can & do run on one lung a long way & some critters can & do become extremely dangerous when wounded & they have you in their sights & they don't even have to be the normal dangerous class to do this

But it's when you delve deeper into the terminal side you understand that a pill dosent magically have the same permanent wound channel until it stops ( I think we get that ) & also broadly speaking the last 1/3 of the permanent wound channel ( lots of variations with different brands ) is starting to get to a part where we are not getting sufficient damage to give us a quick kill with that last 8 inches on our 2 foot total penertration of the permanent wound channel basically useless @ killing quick so now we are running on 1&1/2 lungs but then we add what happens if the angle increase again & only the far lung is in the pills path it will fail to reach it if it's lucky if it's a left side paunch shot & for those that say but dead is dead please respect that's not the optimal world some of us seek as the critter can & most likely it does run a long way with very little blood if any on some species & in certain terrain that is a lost animal or @ best a longtime to recover it

So with the utmost respect this is where it's so important to get a exit on a percentage base of pills especially broadside I say it's extremely important
Now I'm leaving dry encrusting mud to thick ice on the hide /fur on some critters & one also requires other parameters to think about
But for the new comers the above of energy dump & pill under skin on the far side is flaunt with danger
Yes it will kill eventually but if it's a greater % in your favour I'd suggest to reassess the energy dump idea as I did

A frangible can do it & get reliable exits as I've done it with great results but the old line of stay off bone up close is one I like to adhere to with frangible as a good rule of thumb as the energy dump is mostly in the shoulder itself just like it does on the left side of a hard quarter away

On hammers tumbling in gel yep seen plenty of them just like I have with Berger & I looked up that 133 gr Berger you mentioned & hey presto first video up a tumble & these guys ( ultimate reloader ) seem to do pretty good tests so not a back yard outfit I'd say
But I'll go one better than gel I found initially tumbling with hammers in critters on a couple pills with extreme consistent tumbling which Steve took on board & I believe those pills are now tweaked with way better results well was on the last lot of testing done in December so that's a tick to hammers moving forward yet I have not seen the same with your Berger in critters by a couple mates that still shoot them & the tumble is still present now & then but a consistent opening they are not & the eld range is far superior @ consistent opening across the board

Tumbles can give great terminal preformance but we have no certainty on the pills path so erratic results once again become the norm so they can't be relied on for consistency but in most cases yes dead is dead but I want my dead dead

Once again no offence intended to anyone just trying to put up some things I've found to think about then talk about it
It's not from a gurus point it's just from the field on what I've observed so take it as everyone wishes

Sorry for long winded post

Cheers

Excellent post! Not "wordy"……merely adequate information! memtb

 

[memtb]

Gday memtb
The 270 gr weight Barnes pill is a good one & that & 300 were our staples on buff the 350 useless & experimented with so many others
The ease & consistency of them just made to much sense & they just couldn't be shifted from the number 1 pill

Then ————— na I'm done well for now

On elephant I think I get you guys are taking the Mickey as the Barnes will kill once again but I'll shut up

In all seriousness The 270 Barnes will serve you very well on a lot of critters & on your 350 limit it's going to take you a bit to get the itch to try something else which is cool

Stay safe & shoot straight

Cheers

Thanks for the kind words! I'll never hunt elephant and don't really care to……but do consider my choice of cartridge/bullet as a potential candidate for success should it "ever" happen!

I may not have been clear in my post on useable ranges for my cartridge/bullet. If I can get my hypothetical 3000 fps mv or a bit more…..I should be at or slightly above the magical 1800 fps for decent expansion with the LRX out to 950 + yards. As I set my personal limit, under near perfect conditions, to 600 yards…..I should have more than adequate expansion and penetration for most anything that I'm likely to hunt!

If large, dangerous game were on the menu, I'd prefer the shots remain under 100 yards! memtb

 

[cabelasken]

I too

Thanks for the kind words! I'll never hunt elephant and don't really care to……but do consider my choice of cartridge/bullet as a potential candidate for success should it "ever" happen!

I may not have been clear in my post on useable ranges for my cartridge/bullet. If I can get my hypothetical 3000 fps mv or a bit more…..I should be at or slightly above the magical 1800 fps for decent expansion with the LRX out to 950 + yards. As I set my personal limit, under near perfect conditions, to 600 yards…..I should have more than adequate expansion and penetration for most anything that I'm likely to hunt!

If large, dangerous game were on the menu, I'd prefer the shots remain under 100 yards! memtb

I also keep my max range to between 5 and 600 yds, depending on the circumstances and conditions although I believe I can stretch that another 200 yds with ideal conditions I don't try to make those shots. My custom rifles are capable and they are of calibers that can take game at extreme ranges, but when an opportunity presents itself at under 500 yds, I have confidence that we will soon be dragging a game animal out of the mountain. I have seen the difference between a 2300+ FPS impact and a 1900 FPS impact and the effect on the animal and know that the higher impact velocity is significant. This year I had the opportunity to watch my son in law and a friend stalk a small herd of elk that was 900 yds from where we were parked. The guide and the two hunters had to navigate some small undulations in the terrain for almost a mile to get within 175 yds of their quarry. I got to see the whole thing from a perfect vantage point where I kept the hunters and herd in full sight the whole time. A couple of shots and we were cleaning elk 30 minutes later.

 

[Priley]

I always have to laugh when I hear that a bullet needs to exit.. Well I ain't shooting a bow so I don't want an exit hole. Berger bullets are awesome on North American Big Game period. I have killed everything from coyotes to large bears with them and they just plain work. If you put a bullet through the vitals on anything it's not going to run far if it even moves at all. I am a big fan of high shoulder shot because when I do my part there is no tracking. You shut down the central nervous system and they don't even take a step. You say these animals can move and cause a miss or a bad shot. It's been my experience that at ranges beyond 600 yards the animal you are shooting is relaxed and has no idea danger is near. I read the time it takes for the animal to move you could miss or wound the animal?? How far is a relaxed animal going to move in 1.5 seconds? That's how long it take my bullet (133 Berger) to travel 1200 yards. Maybe I'm just lucky but in 45 plus years of big game hunting I have learned a thing or two. With Berger I shoot better.

 

[ATH]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I typically just shoot Accubonds so they simply work at all ranges I will shoot them.

I played this game when we had regs in the state which had me shooting a smokeless powder muzzleloader to get long range performance. I was shooting 200gr Shockwaves, which performed great at 150 yards and longer, which was most of my shots. I shot a few deer closer than that and got extremely cautious about doing so as performance got really questionable as they grenaded. I shot a buck at 35 yards, hit him in the heart, blew his sternum right out the bottom but the bullet didn't penetrate 3 inches. I started carrying 2 guns after that, one for close and one for long.

 

[fordy]

Gday priely I'm guessing you're replying to me if so are we agreeing on the up close then ? That's how I read your reply & my quote of yours below but please tell me if I'm incorrect & we will rehash it over again with facts on both sides of the fence if your willing
This is a good reply but not the whole story of course that's my opinion but I do respect my elders & 45 yrsof you doing it I'll give you that but I also say you seem to be also once like me

Your post
I always have to laugh when I hear that a bullet needs to exit.. Well I ain't shooting a bow so I don't want an exit hole. Berger bullets are awesome on North American Big Game period. I have killed everything from coyotes to large bears with them and they just plain work. If you put a bullet through the vitals on anything it's not going to run far if it even moves at all. I am a big fan of high shoulder shot because when I do my part there is no tracking. You shut down the central nervous system and they don't even take a step. You say these animals can move and cause a miss or a bad shot. It's been my experience that at ranges beyond 600 yards the animal you are shooting is relaxed and has no idea danger is near. I read the time it takes for the animal to move you could miss or wound the animal?? How far is a relaxed animal going to move in 1.5 seconds? That's how long it take my bullet (133 Berger) to travel 1200 yards. Maybe I'm just lucky but in 45 plus years of big game hunting I have learned a thing or two. With Berger I shoot better.

I'll give you that above as a partial picture & I'll add a bit more to give a bit more clarity of what does happen yes low % but I don't like bingo raffles as I'm not lucky as some
What happens if that pill fails to go through the vitals not from lack of placement but penertration

No use getting into a crap fight of oh but I'm right your wrong syndrome I'll also accept I'm a poor shot so I'd ask ea individual work out where they sit on your description above & mine in the following so they may form their own thoughts on what will bring that critter home with the greatest chances of success

First I'll go back to the thread title & as I always do I try to look @ the whole picture & this surely is what's going on up close to cause the op hesitation so he posted this thread to ask how & what he does is solely upto him yet you have only answered a long range part after I posted a reply back to you why we have to be careful especially when things are outside of our control as the penertration of the pill in my equation has played out so many times in real life not only to me but many other hunters & I will accept I must be a poor judge on when to take the shot but when it happens from Murphy to others they would be well advised to @ least think about my equation previously on what may happen so I won't retype as I'm so slow & accept my apology here is my equation

So your energy dump pill stays inside the critter on perfect broadside berger if you want but it's not specific just a energy dump analogy I'm putting up broadly speaking is destined to fail & eventually will

Example We have 2 foot of penertration where the pill will be under the hide on the offside now due to the critter's behaviour or our lack of understanding the critter was quartered more than we thought or spun on a dime as we were sending the shot on its way & our required penertration goes from 2 foot to 3
Now our pill is a foot short & basically one lung uneffected & a lot of critters can & do run on one lung a long way & some critters can & do become extremely dangerous when wounded & they have you in their sights & they don't even have to be the normal dangerous class to do this

But it's when you delve deeper into the terminal side you understand that a pill dosent magically have the same permanent wound channel until it stops ( I think we get that ) & also broadly speaking the last 1/3 of the permanent wound channel ( lots of variations with different brands ) is starting to get to a part where we are not getting sufficient damage to give us a quick kill with that last 8 inches on our 2 foot total penertration of the permanent wound channel basically useless @ killing quick so now we are running on 1&1/2 lungs but then we add what happens if the angle increase again & only the far lung is in the pills path it will fail to reach it if it's lucky if it's a left side paunch shot & for those that say but dead is dead please respect that's not the optimal world some of us seek as the critter can & most likely it does run a long way with very little blood if any on some species & in certain terrain that is a lost animal or @ best a longtime to recover it

So with the utmost respect this is where it's so important to get a exit on a percentage base of pills especially broadside I say it's extremely important
Now I'm leaving dry encrusting mud to thick ice on the hide /fur on some critters & one also requires other parameters to think about
But for the new comers the above of energy dump & pill under skin on the far side is flaunt with danger
Yes it will kill eventually but if it's a greater % in your favour I'd suggest to reassess the energy dump idea as I did

A frangible can do it & get reliable exits as I've done it with great results but the old line of stay off bone up close is one I like to adhere to with frangible as a good rule of thumb as the energy dump is mostly in the shoulder itself just like it does on the left side of a hard quarter away

I just noticed on here that even a fairly substantial weight frangible failed to exit now put that on a elk & then those ever so potential angles from our lack of being able to place that pill with precision 100% of the time & i have not even entered into any wind reading that we may be off

But here's a series of photos that I screen shot from a video on my home forum that to me showed perfectly why we need to be careful
This deer was watched for around a hour & stood & while it started to stretch while offering a slight angle broadside & on break of the trigger it turned & the angle to the vitals increased dramatically now if that was some frangibles a gut shot deer with a high probability of not getting enough damage to the vitals & loosing the critter would be possible no one knows but I want the runs on the board & that's a pill that will routinely exit on a broadside not under the skin .
time from trigger break to impact I think was around .5-.6 of a second & I have permission to share

The energy dump system is one
That will kill im not doubting that ( I used to swear by it & a huge frangible junkie ) but time after time they have lacked the goods to get the job done on when things don't go to the perfect plan but I don't like loosing any critter or tracking & today my impact to tip is shorter from what I used to achieve

I'm not here to judge just show facts
I've done my longrange & not to proud to say I'd messed up or hide behind my mistakes as that's how I learn just as I have @ short range but I tip my hat to the ones that can do it shot after shot & where they aimed

Cheers

 

[Majestic 6.5]

Everybody better tell the remington core lokt they aren't supposed to kill the 10,000s of elk they've killed. I've hammered a lot of elk with them way before I found out only a mono would kill an e

 

[Mike Matteson]

I ran into a very knowledgeable shooter at the range that used Bergers extensively because they were so accurate and performed very well for him at extended distances. Well one year his bull elk opportunity came at under 75 yds. The bullet hit the near shoulder and never reached the vitals. After a couple of miles of tracking, and a day and a half thru some steep terrain, he gave up. An unfortunate loss of a great game animal. His custom rifle was capable of launching 168 Bergers at over 3250 FPS with accuracy consistently below 1/3 MOA for 5 shot groups. He had taken many bulls well beyond 600 yds and at that distance never had an issue. I have had two 140 partitions from my 284 win fragmented so badly that the biggest piece I could find was 6 Grains. There was no shank left but 10 pieces of 3 to 6 grains were found throughout the body cavity. Apparently there was a manufacturing problem for my particular lot number. Three years ago, I took a cow elk that had been shot the previous day by another hunter in our party. His shot was good, but the factory cheapest he could find load did not perform as well as he expected and the cow showed no sign of being hit. So, if you have the capacity to load your own, I suggest doing some research and selecting the best bullet that shoots well in your rifle. There are many premium bullets available that will do the job from 25 ft to 1000+ yds.

I had that experience 40 years ago with with Nosler Partition bullet in a 25/06 with a 100gr. It did go through, but blood shot one entire side of the deer. The animal was about 40yds away. I change to Nosler solid base 120gr bullet in that rifle. Never had that problem again. I also used 165gr in my 308 NM @ 3300fps from very close to over 500yds and didn't have that problem either. Again used 200gr Nosler in my 338WM @ 3200fps from close to 500yds and not have that problem. The other is I got better accuracy too. The other is I normally don't shoulder shot. I shot heart lung shots. I have driven those bullets from front to back and back to front. Not much in bloodshot either.
The other is I don't use target bullet to hunting with. They are not built the same.

 

[hemiford]

I'm curious to read folks' opinions on something.
You are carrying one rifle. The buttstock ammo pouch holds several rounds. You could carry several different loads.

What is your opinion of keeping the chamber empty until an opportune shot presents itself ?
Take a moment to size up the situation.
You would then hand chamber a single round, the most appropriate round for that distance/animal/etc.

Is this strategy too picky/simplistic/idealistic/silly/ inconvenient/stupid/ all of the above ?

I have no hidden agenda asking this, just curious.

Now, I don't mean that you shouldn't at all times have some means of self defense against predators,
that's self defense not hunting.

 

[adam32+P]

I'm curious to read folks' opinions on something.
You are carrying one rifle. The buttstock ammo pouch holds several rounds. You could carry several different loads.

What is your opinion of keeping the chamber empty until an opportune shot presents itself ?
Take a moment to size up the situation.
You would then hand chamber a single round, the most appropriate round for that distance/animal/etc.

Is this strategy too picky/simplistic/idealistic/silly/ inconvenient/stupid/ all of the above ?

I have no hidden agenda asking this, just curious.

Now, I don't mean that you shouldn't at all times have some means of self defense against predators,
that's self defense not hunting.

Many guys do the two bullet theory.

 

[memtb]

I'm curious to read folks' opinions on something.
You are carrying one rifle. The buttstock ammo pouch holds several rounds. You could carry several different loads.

What is your opinion of keeping the chamber empty until an opportune shot presents itself ?
Take a moment to size up the situation.
You would then hand chamber a single round, the most appropriate round for that distance/animal/etc.

Is this strategy too picky/simplistic/idealistic/silly/ inconvenient/stupid/ all of the above ?

I have no hidden agenda asking this, just curious.

Now, I don't mean that you shouldn't at all times have some means of self defense against predators,
that's self defense not hunting.

I personally know someone that followed this philosophy…..the results were an unbelievable and utter failure!

If the shooter can control his/her emotions during the hunting/shooting event and will use the correct bullet during the moment of truth, and zero of the two or three different chosen bullets are either all the same or can be easily adjusted by the (cool, calm, collected) shooter…..it is a possible answer for all ranges angles of shot, and size/physical stature of possible animals to be taken! Otherwise, having multiple bullets for different applications is a "recipe for disaster"! JMO. memtb

 

[Mike Matteson]

If you are hunting elk in the woods. Good luck.
Now if you are using different loads the arc of the bullet probable would be different too. So now where are you to hold to shoot. Pull out the cheap sheet and figure it out. The only problems with that is having the animal stay in one spot while you determine which round you are going to use. Today scopes are set up to cut all the guessing game out. or most of it. You have range finder to determine distance. You have to do some range shooting to know how the bullet flies. Depending on temp outside and type of powder you are using can change the point of impact greatly. Under 500yds not so much, but beyond that it's a difference story.
On Large game I use rifles that product about the same velocity, which turns into about the same drop at different yardages. That way the drop almost mirrors the same in each rifle. I didn't have to rethink the drop in each rifle. I use a simple scope too. A 2x8 duplex Leupold scope. With the duplex to determine the range of the animal. With that I know where to hold the crosshairs on the animal to shoot. This is done within 500yds. I used a 721 Rem bolt action for years to hunt deer, and made several shots at different yards with several at 500yds or so.
I was around a man in Africa that used a 30/06 and a very nice rifle. He had a nighforce scope on it. It had all the bells and whistles. A top of the line range finder too. Max ranges under 150 yard mostly. Under 50 yds he wounder an animal. He wouldn't shoot again with the animal moving a few yards. He would check his range finder to range, then adjust his scope. he had several shots, but never fired. He was adjusting his scope to shot. Findly the animal walked off. They never found the animal either. It cost him $600.00 for the animal that he never took home.
That's my thinking, and I am sure lots of other people have difference ideas.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Never surprises me how many people blame bullets when something goes wrong.

You fellas buy different shoes every time you trip?