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Long Range thick skin bullets

Not sure that was the pic that was sent to me.

Very good point I love Bergers but I now agree I won't be shooting a berger at everything.

Stenger.....not trying to tear you apart! I believe this post was VERY worthwhile and causes people to think about things with a more open mind. Your point about the thinner jacket that is meant for hunting being possibly worse, is well taken. My opinion is, it wasn't meant for hunting moose; or at least for taking that kind of shot angle. Every bullet has a window in which it works properly. I am guily of pushing the limit to the other extreme, and in my opinion, lost an animal due to lack of expansion. We all have things to learn....Rich
p.s. Had he shot the moose at 600 yards, the bullet may have done it's job even at that angle?
 
I have seen a Hornady SST fired from a .308 do the same thing at short range on deer. The difference is that the bullet didn't have to travel far to reach the vitals, thus the fact that the bullet came unglued resulted in an instant kill.

I have a hard time viewing this episode as a bullet failure. The Berger bullets behaved the way thin jacketed cup and core bullets behave. I see this as a classic example of failure to understand the limitations of the projectile being used, and ultimately, failure to match the tool to the application.

I have yet to shoot Berger VLD or Hornady AMAX type bullets at anything but paper. However, based on what I have seen standard cup and core hunting bullets do at close range and high impact velocity, I am not willing to use thinner jacketed bullets, even on deer, at normal hunting ranges from most rifles. I practice with these kinds of bullets, though, because I am working on extending my effective range and want to be prepared for the day when I finally have the chance to use them at long range.

Having said that, I agree that the information supplied by the OP is useful to all of us in helping to define the limitations of our tools. Thank you, stenger, for the education and lessons learned!
 
Every bullet has a window in which it works properly. I am guily of pushing the limit to the other extreme, and in my opinion, lost an animal due to lack of expansion. We all have things to learn....Rich
p.s. Had he shot the moose at 600 yards, the bullet may have done it's job even at that angle?

I have seen the lower velocity limit for expansion of Berger Hunting VLD's defined as being between 1700 and 1900 fps (a bit lower with AMAX's). However, I have yet to see anyone define the upper limit for impact velocity while still obtaining optimum penetration.

I would guess that the upper limit with thin jacketed bullets like these would be around 2600 or so, but that is just a WAG.
 
Ok first and second shot were behind the ribs on a hard quartering away shot bullets entered had approx eight inches of penetration then failed no bones hit. Bullets did not make it to the diaphragm. Pic one is this bullet. Pic two was a neck shot side of neck penetration was approx 6 inches then stopped. 250 berger OTM at 2915 FPS.

So he intentionally took a hard quartering away shot on a MOOSE with a 250 gr berger...... This was not bullet failure, this was bullet selection failure. As mentioned already, pick the right bullet for the job at hand.

For shot angles like that on game like this, you need serious bullets that will give you 3 feet class of penetration, not exactly what most LR match bullets are known for, especially for close range impacts. We see this all the time, hunters choose a long range bullet because they THINK there may be a slight opportunity to take a shot at big game at long range, then 90% of the time they get a conventional range shot or even close range shot and when things do bad, they blame the bullet. It was not the fault of the bullet in any way.
 
Solely knowing one bullet penetrated 8" and another penetrated 6 inches, along with the description of the impact locations = a clear failure for these bullets to perform on this bull moose.

Three possible conclusions come to mind: 1) These 250gr bullets don't perform on moose. 2) These bullets aren't designed for use on moose, therefore if they don't perform, it's not their fault. 3) If the bullets fail to perform on moose, something else other than the bullet is responsible.


Take your pick:

Select #1 &#2: this conclusion is equivalent to these 250gr bullets are not moose bullets since they're not designed to kill large animals like moose. Use this bullet on moose and you're asking for disappointment.

Select #1 & #3: this is equivalent to these 250gr bullets don't perform on moose unless used by a knowledgeable and skilled hunter that makes no errors in planning, judgement, and execution. They penetrate 8" or less on moose, however with the proper end-user knowledge and skill set, they're still a moose killing projectile. If you can't kill a moose with these bullets, it's your own fault.

Based on these two options, wise counsel for the majority of moose hunters is to use a bonded, lead core jacketed expanding bullet, or else a monolithic expanding bullet like the Barnes TSX. If you're specifically setting up for, and will only take a long range shot at, a moose farther than 600 yds away, then a highly frangible lead core bullet like this 250gr Berger will certainly kill a moose with a broadside hit thru the lungs and ribs.

OR, a person could adopt the two-bullet hunting technique and have the best of both worlds at all times. Load/carry two styles of bullets for potential use on all of your hunting trips:

A) Select and carry a deep penetrating, controlled-expansion bullet for close shots which help ensure adequate penetration on huge tough animals like moose or brown bear. Bullets with high BC values, extreme accuracy, and wind bucking ability are not required for closer range encounters with these beasts. Carry these short range, camp/bear defense bullets in the magazine during all phases of your hunt. Very little time is required to develop these loads since they'll only be used out to ~ 300 yds. My load preparation time for camp loads is limited to simply shooting the bullets at 200yds to establish their POI. I don't really even shoot them for groups. Don't particularly care if they shoot 1/2 moa or 2 moa.

B) Select and carry cartridges loaded with the world's ultimate most perfect long range big game hunting bullet available. One with a wind bucking and velocity/energy retaining high BC, tack driving accuracy, and certain expansion at long range low velocity impacts on large game. If you encounter the trophy of a lifetime at a truly long range distance, you'll almost certainly have time to remove the camp/bear defense loads from you firearm, replace them with your long range bullet cartridges, and engage the game at long range. How many times have you encountered a long range shot opportunity, and haven't had time to change out the cartridge in your rifle without the animal escaping?

Many hunters will avoid this approach as if there's some nasty penalty associated with it. Perhaps because there are no really large game animals where they hunt. It provides bullets well suited for both close and long range shots, and bullets best suited for big ugly snarling tooth, fang, and antler equipped man-eaters, or small plains game. A much better option than trying to make a single bullet perform well at both long range and short range. I've never felt handicapped in any way using this approach over the past 25 years of big game hunting in Alaska.

Why constrain yourself to a single bullet? There's no law limiting us to a single bullet for all applications. I like the controlled expansion, close range bullet for all close shots because it also provides the additional advantage of less bullet-damaged meat, regardless of the size of the game animal.
 
Take your pick:

Select #1 &#2: this conclusion is equivalent to these 250gr bullets are not moose bullets since they're not designed to kill large animals like moose. Use this bullet on moose and you're asking for disappointment.

Select #1 & #3: this is equivalent to these 250gr bullets don't perform on moose unless used by a knowledgeable and skilled hunter that makes no errors in planning, judgement, and execution. They penetrate 8" or less on moose, however with the proper end-user knowledge and skill set, they're still a moose killing projectile. If you can't kill a moose with these bullets, it's your own fault.

Based on these two possibilities, wise counsel for the majority of moose hunters is to use a bonded, lead core jacketed expanding bullet, or else a monolithic expanding bullet like the Barnes TXS. If you're specifically setting up for, and will only take long range shot at, a moose farther than 600 yds away, then a highly frangible lead core bullet like this 250gr Berger will certainly kill a moose with a broadside hit thru the lungs and ribs.

OR, a person could adopt the two-bullet hunting technique and have the best of both worlds at all times. Load/carry two styles of bullets on your hunting trips:

A) Select and carry a deep penetrating, controlled-expansion bullet for close shots which help ensure adequate penetration on huge tough animals like moose or brown bear. Bullets with high BC values, extreme accuracy, and wind bucking ability are not required for closer range encounters with these beasts. Carry these short range, camp/bear defense bullets in the magazine during all phases of your hunt. Very little time is required to develop these loads since they'll only be used out to ~ 300 yds. My load preparation time for my camp loads is limited to simply shooting the bullets at 200yds to establish their POI. I don't really even shoot them for groups. Don't particularly care if they shoot 1/2 moa or 2 moa.

B) Select and carry cartridges loaded with the world's ultimate most perfect long range big game hunting bullet available. One with a wind bucking and velocity/energy retaining high BC, tack driving accuracy, and certain expansion as long range low velocity impacts on large game. If you encounter the trophy of a lifetime at a truly long range distance, you'll almost certainly have time to remove the camp/bear defense loads from you firearm, replace them with your long range bullet cartridges, and engage the game at long range. How many times have you encountered a long range shot opportunity, and haven't had time to change out the cartridge in your rifle without the animal escaping?

Many hunters will avoid this approach as if there's some nasty penalty associated with it. Perhaps because there are no really large game animals where they hunt. It provides bullets well suited for both close and long range shots, and bullets best suited for big ugly snarling tooth, fang, and antler equipped man-eaters, or small plains game. A much better option than trying to make a single bullet perform well at both long range and short range. I've never felt handicapped in any way using this approach over the past 25 years of big game hunting in Alaska.

Why constrain yourself to a single bullet? There's no law limiting us to a single bullet for all applications. I like the controlled expansion, close range bullet for all close shots because it also provides the additional advantage of less bullet-damaged meat, regardless of the size of the game animal.

In the lower 48, probably 95% or more hunting shots on any lower 48 game is doable with a Berger bullet. Most will get a broadside shot and put it in the lungs @ moderate to close ranges.

I am a bit concerned about penetration with a close range high velocity shot so some testing is in order.

I used to load 180 E-Tips for short to mid range shots in my 300 RUM and 210 Bergers for long range. One of the issues with that is change of POI between loads. Fortunately for me the, windage for both loads was almost identical and the Bergers were about 1 MOA lower @ 200 yds than the E-Tips. I might try something similar this year with the 200 CEB's and 230 Hybrids or just go with the CEB's and call it good.
 
One of the issues with that is change of POI between loads.

Mark,
I've yet to experience a change in POI that compromises the use of the close range bear/camp/defense bullets on large game out to at least 200 yds. But I do fire the bullets at 2-300 yds to confirm the bullet's POI. This might pose more of a problem for smaller sized animals, but even on black tailed deer and Dall sheep, any change in POI has remained within the lethal zone out to 300yds. If my close range bullet did change POI so greatly at 200yds that it could cause a miss, I'd simply load another close range bullet that provided less POI change out of my specific rifle. Again, I've never had to do this yet, but there are many good controlled-expansion bullets available to select from for close range use.

With respect to Alaskan moose, the kill zone is so large that this should never be a problem, even it the close range bullet was loaded and fired butt-end first.

The primary factor I consider in when selecting my close range bullet is; which bullet will disable a big bear the quickest. Ballistic coefficient is insignificant at close range.
 
In my hunting arena, I'm not concerned with dangerous bears... much :) There are some grizz in some areas I hunt. If I go the the 2 load route, my controlled expansion bullets needs to be accurate to maybe 600 yds as cagey mulies can see you a long way off. So there may not be much time to switch out bullets and POI shift between bullets becomes more of a factor. Also, kill zones are smaller than Alaska. A lot of it has do with hunting technique... ambush vs spot and stalk.

There are a lot of things I like about the Bergers but if they don't pass the close range test I will at least load for controlled expansion short range shooting or just abandom them all together in my RUM. Now with the 6.5 WSM and 6-284, they are another story. I will probably develop a load for CEB's and Bergers in each depending on type of shooting. CEB's are too spending to be killing prairie dogs and rocks with.
 
I have to disagree

Berger hunting bullets does not publish any guidance as to what animals they were designed to kill and at what velociity. They were used because we have had great sucess on medium sized game. In this situation the OTM was used specifically because it has a thicker jacket in an attempt to gain added penetration. My understanding is that the only differance is the jacket thickness between the hunting and OTM bullets. Anyway you look at it berger failed to either make a penetrating big game bullet or failed to inform us that they will only get 8 inches of penetration on a moose and split into two pieces and loose all their weight. The web site even says 14-15 inches of massive wound channel. Shot angle makes no differance if the bullets carries weight and holds together they make it into the lungs and game over. I will agree that a perfect broadside shot and we are not having this discussion. In the real world sometimes you just don't get a broadside shot but can still take and animal cleanly with quartering shots. Like I said before we love Bergers on whitetail they are great but they are not a moose bullet. Wheather its my fault, his fault for the shot angle ,or Bergers fault, or a combo of all three, the system failed and these bullets probably should not be used on moose. Sorry berger I stand behind you on the small animals but not the really big ones
 
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