Long Range thick skin bullets

[Pdvdh]

Personally, I have never taken a Quartering away shot and probably never will.

I've shot moose from the rear end also, and never lost one with that angle of shot, but it's been with stouter, more controlled expansion bullets. Can only think of one moose where my first shot was to the butt. It was the end of moose season and the bull jumped up near the edge of cover and starting trotting straight away from me.

This quartering away shot has more often been taken after it's known that the animal has been hit, and it's time to finish the job. Any shot at a game animal that's been hit and is at risk of being lost is a good shot in my book. These must take shots should also be considered by hunters evaluating which bullet to load and use for their moose hunts. Stuff happens to the best of us, or our hunting partners, and sometimes we may need to bring down a bull moose with less than ideal profile/positioning of the animal.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I dont believe that bullet manufacturers ever state that their bullet will take game while the animal is in an undesirable position for someone to be shooting at it in the first place. Especially an animal as big as a moose.

I don't think we know the animal was in an undesirable position. Quartering shots are a little more challenging but can be made with the right bullet. Attempting to penetrate through the ham of a moose to its vitals is another story.

Bottom line is I think we have all learned that any shot with this bullet from this rifle only penetrating 8 inches would have been non-optimal.

As Kirby said,

MAN, made a bad bullet choice on that one, know better for next time!!!

That's what we take away from this.

 

[Korhil78]

I've shot moose from the rear end also, and never lost one with that angle of shot, but it's been with stouter, more controlled expansion bullets. Can only think of one moose where my first shot was to the butt. It was the end of moose season and the bull jumped up near at the edge of cover and starting trotting straight away from me.

This quartering away shot has more often been taken after it's known that the animal has been hit, and it's time to finish the job. Any shot at game animal that's been hit and is at risk of being lost is a good shot in my book. These must take shots should also be considered by hunters evaluating which bullet to load and use for their moose hunts. Stuff happens to the best of us, or our hunting partners, and sometimes we may need to bring down a bull moose with less than ideal profile/positioning of the animal.

I can certainly agree with that if the animal has already been hit. I just always try to make sure that my first hit is broadside or a frontal chest shot. Its just choice for me but I just choose not to take a rear shot on an animal. Too much can go wrong. I don't find fault with people who do take those shots but I just hope they pick the right bullet for that job.

 

[Pdvdh]

The problem I see here is a lack of understanding as to what those limitations are. Maybe Berger should provide some general guide lines.

Back to the limitations of the bullet. It seems obvious now that the 250's are not a good choice for the big 338's. However, they probably are a good choice for the 338 WM and lesser 338 chamberings.

So, the way I see it, the bullets did not fail. They performed as designed within their limitations. The failure was the lack of understanding and available guidance on those limitations.

I hear that. Perhaps we forget that these highly frangible hunting bullets were not recommended or used for hunting until recently - like within the past 5 years. Berger didn't market their target bullets for hunting until relatively recently. Their bullets kill like lightening under the right combination of circumstances. A lot of hunters love them for that very reason.

Members of this Forum tend to keep up with leading edge product information and product technology. There are many more hunters that don't. This is what I hinted at in my earlier post. I can understand how many hunters might expect a 250gr bullet fired from a .338 caliber rifle to be sufficient for moose. Prior to 5 years ago and the entry of the highly frangible, thin jacketed lead core hunting bullets, just about any 250gr jacketed, lead core expanding bullet offering would have provided sufficient penetration on large bull moose.

Cripes, long range hunting didn't didn't really come into its own until quality laser range finders became commonly available. The Berger bullets fit the long range hunting niche very well. That doesn't mean they fit every circumstance of use equally well. Thus the learning curve that's become a secondary topic of discussion within this Thread.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I've shot moose from the rear end also, and never lost one with that angle of shot, but it's been with stouter, more controlled expansion bullets. Can only think of one moose where my first shot was to the butt. It was the end of moose season and the bull jumped up near at the edge of cover and starting trotting straight away from me.

This quartering away shot has more often been taken after it's known that the animal has been hit, and it's time to finish the job. Any shot at game animal that's been hit and is at risk of being lost is a good shot in my book. These must take shots should also be considered by hunters evaluating which bullet to load and use for their moose hunts. Stuff happens to the best of us, or our hunting partners, and sometimes we may need to bring down a bull moose with less than ideal profile/positioning of the animal.

That is pretty much my exact point. It is unwise to plan as if the best possible situation will happen. Much better to plan for the worst possible situation, especially with heavier game because I am pretty sure most moose do not fall to a single shot. Some do no doubt but if they do not, most of us will keep shooting as you mentioned. Once a bullet is in a big game animal, any followup shot is a good shot.

Expecting this would make one think that a berger would be well down the list of preferred bullets to use for moose. That has been my point all along. If nothing else, go with the 300 gr version.

 

[rick523]

Subscribing to follow the battle... Popcorn anyone?

Yes please with a lot of butter. Just got back from Wy. this morn. hope I didn't miss the opening act. LOL

 

[elkaholic]

The bullets performed to the level of their limitations. The problem I see here is a lack of understanding as to what those limitations are. Maybe Berger should provide some general guide lines.

If I was loading for a 338 Lapua, I would without thought pick the 300 gr bullets over the 250's because that's the way I think. Go heavy for caliber or go the heaviest your twist will allow within the limits of the chambering, especially with highly frangible bullets. That said, before this thread started, I would not have guessed that the 250's would have come apart like that from this rifle with the described shot on this game. The shot I am picturing is one entering somewhere between the ribs and the hind quarter which is into relatively soft tissue. That in my mind IS a REASONABLE shot and i would have expected penetration to the vitals, liver and lungs. If the shot was intentionally placed through the ham with hopes of penetration to the vitals with a frangible bullet, I would call that poor placement, asking for failure. What's common sense to some through experience is something that needs to be learned by others, including myself.

Back to the limitations of the bullet. It seems obvious now that the 250's are not a good choice for the big 338's. However, they probably are a good choice for the 338 WM and lesser 338 chamberings.

So, the way I see it, the bullets did not fail. They performed as designed within their limitations. The failure was the lack of understanding and available guidance on those limitations.

Mark.....water is pretty soft like the soft part of a moose but it will rip apart ANY Berger I've shot at that velocity! When there is little resistance against the side of a bullet, it tends to come unglued. ........rich

 

[elkaholic]

That is pretty much my exact point. It is unwise to plan as if the best possible situation will happen. Much better to plan for the worst possible situation, especially with heavier game because I am pretty sure most moose do not fall to a single shot. Some do no doubt but if they do not, most of us will keep shooting as you mentioned. Once a bullet is in a big game animal, any followup shot is a good shot.

Expecting this would make one think that a berger would be well down the list of preferred bullets to use for moose. That has been my point all along. If nothing else, go with the 300 gr version.

This is exactly my point from an earlier post. EVERYBODY should not be shooting EVERYTHING with Bergers. The guys who have good success with them know what they are doing and probably would not take a shot like that. Also, this probably belongs on another thread but it still comes down to the common sense issue. I am just as concerned about the other extreme, and that is, shooting beyond the expansion limits of a bullet.....Rich

 

[MMERSS]

Shoot CONFIDENT, Shoot SMART, Shoot STRAIGHT
If a gun was made to shoot the 300's use them. USE THEM. Fight big when it's big your fighting be it with a Berger or AccuBond or the like.

 

[Broz]

Back to where we have been many times over with most bullet discussions. There is no perfect bullet for all applications or shot distances. Like I have said before, know how your bullet of choice works best, then use it to the best advantages for your application.

I am not reading all this thread, I have heard most of it all before. But has the question been asked if these bullets were pointed or tip modified in any way?

Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

Back to where we have been many times over with most bullet discussions. There is no perfect bullet for all applications or shot distances. Like I have said before, know how your bullet of choice works best, then use it to the best advantages for your application.

I am not reading all this thread, I have heard most of it all before. But has the question been asked if these bullets were pointed or tip modified in any way?

Jeff

I think I have read it all and I haven't heard that mentioned?.....Rich

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Wow, I can not believe the OP and others are still arguing for bullet failure? Really guys really, its a target bullet not a hunting bullet, fact is the OPs buddy is lucky he even got the animal at all, not only did the bullet perform, it performed above and beyond what it was designed for, the title of the thread should be change to "WOW BERGER WOW!

 

[Pdvdh]

Much better to plan for the worst possible situation, especially with heavier game because I am pretty sure most moose do not fall to a single shot.

This is true in my experience. I have never seen a moose drop at the first shot unless the bullet disabled their central nervous system - meaning the bullet hit the brain or the spinal cord in the neck or the back. And I've seen quite a few shot. Now I have dispatched moose with a single bullet broadside thru the lungs a number of times. If I know I've connected solidly with a broadside double lung shot, I'll generally hold my fire unless the bull is going to be able to disappear from view. Bulls so hit have typically bolted at the shot and run/trotted less than 75 yds, stopped, lowered their heads over a period of about 30-45 seconds, and then collapsed, tipped over, or bedded down and died. Shot one with a 12 gauge Brenneke slug once from about 120 yards. The slug entered a littler lower on the ribs than desired, but this bull reacted the same way, except the slug wasn't as destructive as a higher velocity centerfire rifle round, and we had to dispatch this bull with another round after walking up on him. Same with a bull I shot at 765 yds with a 250gr round nose Nosler Partition. The bull was still alive after trotting 60 yds and bedding down when I got out to him, but unable to get up and move out. This was about 20 minutes after the bull dropped to the ground out of site. The slower velocity hit at that range didn't destroy enough lung to cause rapid death.

Bull moose have a lot of blood in them compared to a deer. You can hit a deer in the rear ham with a sharp broadhead and the deer will bleed out and die from blood loss before the wound clots - stopping further blood loss. Hit a bull moose in the rear ham with a sharp broadhead and the bull will not lose enough blood to die before the wound clots. The bull will be sick, but will not die of blood loss, unless you happen to hit the femoral or another large artery/vein in the rear leg.

Moose aren't near as high strung as deer, in my experience. I suspect they have a slower heart rate/metabolism than deer. Stories of moose absorbing multiple lethal bullet hits broadside to the ribs/chest and never even running are fairly common, although I've never personally seen or experienced this. I heard one reliable story from two hunters I worked with that were hunting together. They shot a bull 5 times in the ribs at about 140yds (30-06 and 338 Win Mag). They were in credulous that they could be missing the bull, so they kept on taking turns shooting. The bull finally fell over without ever taking a step, and they found their 5 bullet hits upon field dressing. Every bull I've shot or seen shot by others lethally into the ribs bolted at the shot and trotted around 50yds (less than 100yds) before stopping, losing strength, and then collapsing.

Based on my experiences and observations, if a lung shot bull isn't slowing down after moving 50-60yds, you outta plan on shooting him again, even if he's out in wide open terrain. I've never seen a solidly double-lunged bull moose go more than 100yds from the initial shot location.

Watched my brother shoot a 60" rut-crazed bull with a sharp broadhead thru both lungs from 30yds. The bull bolted 15yds, stopped, and dropped like a bag of potatoes after about 15 seconds. Faster than I'd ever seen one flop with a high-powered rifle bullet thru both lungs. The part I couldn't believe was the bull never even twitched after he flopped down to the ground. Watched it all from about 50yds away. Go figure...

 

[Pdvdh]

Wow, I can not believe the OP and others are still arguing for bullet failure? Really guys really, its a target bullet not a hunting bullet, fact is the OPs buddy is lucky he even got the animal at all, not only did the bullet perform, it performed above and beyond what it was designed for, the title of the thread should be change to "WOW BERGER WOW!

Bull____. Too funny! Must work for Berger...