Long Range thick skin bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

I have to disagree

Berger hunting bullets does not publish any guidance as to what animals they were designed to kill and at what velociity. They were used because we have had great sucess on medium sized game. In this situation the OTM was used specifically because it has a thicker jacket in an attempt to gain added penetration. My understanding is that the only differance is the jacket thickness between the hunting and OTM bullets. Anyway you look at it berger failed to either make a penetrating big game bullet or failed to inform us that they will only get 8 inches of penetration on a moose and split into two pieces and loose all their weight. The web site even says 14-15 inches of massive wound channel. Shot angle makes no differance if the bullets carries weight and holds together they make it into the lungs and game over. I will agree that a perfect broadside shot and we are not having this discussion. In the real world sometimes you just don't get a broadside shot but can still take and animal cleanly with quartering shots. Like I said before we love Bergers on whitetail they are great but they are not a moose bullet. Wheather its my fault, his fault for the shot angle ,or Bergers fault, or a combo of all three, the system failed and these bullets probably should not be used on moose. Sorry berger I stand behind you on the small animals but not the really big ones

Disagree with what? I basically agree with you. That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I think it would be good for Berger to list upper level velocities for their bullets, but that might be difficult to determine depending on variables.

This thread has been educational and caused me to take a closer look at Berger's close range performance.

 

[stenger]

Sorry that was for Kirby

 

[Broz]

That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Bingo! I still don't understand shooting a fragmenting, light for caliber offering, at one of if not the largest animals we can hunt. So we can have more velocity? which is exactly what causes less penetration. A 300 OTM with a MV of 2775 to 2800 would have worked a lot different.

Kirby is 100% correct when he states there was as much failure from the bullet choice used and there was bullet it self. Not to mention the choice of placement and shot angle. It would be great to see a pic of where the first hit landed and the angle it was administered. This would be very educational for further reference.


Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

It would be great to see a pic of where the first hit landed and the angle it was administered. This would be very educational for further reference.

Jeff

Yes, pictures of the entry wounds on the skinned animal would help allow each reader to draw their own conclusions. I'd also like to know the weight of the recovered lead fragments of bullets. The piece in the photo looks to be maybe 50-70 grains?

250gr isn't particularly a light for caliber .338 bullet. 200-300gr bullets seem to cover the commonly produced weights. I remember when 250 and 275gr lead core expanding bullets were the heavy weight offerings. But no disagreements with your recommendations to use the heavyweights with a frangible lead jacketed bullet on the largest of game animals - if one chooses to use a highly frangible bullet. As you have stated, the extra lead and the lower impact velocity will both help ensure a deeper wound channel.

I've shot moose with this flavor of bullet in the distant past - the Sierra 250 grain spitzer boat tail bullets loaded in .338 Win Mag. These may have been called Game Kings? I've found these lead cores completely separated from the jacket on more than one animal, but the lead core maintained a significant percentage of its original weight and often penetrated the full width of the moose, to be found just under the hide on the far side ribs. MV was around 2700 fps. Dunno about the lead composition or jacket thickness of this Sierra bullet compared to the current Bergers. In those days, these Sierras were about the heaviest bullet - with a reasonably high BC - available in .338 caliber, to my knowledge. Hornady made some 225gr Spire points. Speer made a 275gr round nose bullet. Nosler offered 250gr round nose Partitions. Winchester 250 gr round nose Silvertips. There were some 300 grain round nose solids. I think Barnes might have offered a 300 grain round nose lead core jacketed bullet, but these weren't commonly available where I shopped for bullets. I'm talking days before the development and production of the Barnes monolithics or any of the bonded core bullets - going back quite few years.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I have to disagree

Berger hunting bullets does not publish any guidance as to what animals they were designed to kill and at what velociity. They were used because we have had great sucess on medium sized game. In this situation the OTM was used specifically because it has a thicker jacket in an attempt to gain added penetration. My understanding is that the only differance is the jacket thickness between the hunting and OTM bullets. Anyway you look at it berger failed to either make a penetrating big game bullet or failed to inform us that they will only get 8 inches of penetration on a moose and split into two pieces and loose all their weight. HAve you EVER watched any of the Berger promo videos or advertisments? In every one they state that the bullet is designed to expand rapidly to transfer massive amount of energy to big game animals. Never once have I EVER heard claims from Berger that you can shoot through a moose at a hard quartering away angle and be confident to get the job done.The web site even says 14-15 inches of massive wound channel. Hard quartering away shot, 14-15" would not even get you to the back of the lungs. It was a bad choice to take a shot with the wrong bullet choice. Shot angle makes no differance if the bullets carries weight and holds together they make it into the lungs and game over. Berger bullets are not and HAVE NEVER BEEN designed to carry their weight after impact. Not sure what berger bullets you are thinking about but they are obviously not the ones most everyone have been using. I will agree that a perfect broadside shot and we are not having this discussion. With the 250 gr OMT I am not sure that is a true statement either. 300 gr, I would agree but not with the 250 gr weight. In the real world sometimes you just don't get a broadside shot but can still take and animal cleanly with quartering shots. If you have decided to use a 250 gr Berger bullet on moose szed targets, YOU BETTER WAIT FOR A BROADSIDE SHOT. Proof of that is in the results your complaining about. Like I said before we love Bergers on whitetail they are great but they are not a moose bullet. I think that is what everyone has been telling you. It seems there are very few learning something new here. Wheather its my fault, his fault for the shot angle ,or Bergers fault, or a combo of all three, the system failed and these bullets probably should not be used on moose. Sorry berger I stand behind you on the small animals but not the really big ones

Its not the bullets fault in any way shape or form, nor is it Bergers fault. Instead of blaming anyone, it would be great to just hear, MAN, made a bad bullet choice on that one, know better for next time!!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Disagree with what? I basically agree with you. That said if you had loaded the 300 gr bullets instead of the 250 gr bullets we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I think it would be good for Berger to list upper level velocities for their bullets, but that might be difficult to determine depending on variables.

This thread has been educational and caused me to take a closer look at Berger's close range performance.

A little common sense MUST be employed by us as ammunition loaders as well. I would like to see a poll that asked one question: " would you use the 250 gr Berger OTM bullet for hard quartering away shots on mature Alaskan bull moose at close range in with a 338 Lapua?"

Yes or No.

I would bet the replies would be 90% NO. Again, a little common sense has to be used by those of us that load the ammunition.

 

[Fiftydriver]

250gr isn't particularly a light for caliber .338 bullet. 200-300gr bullets seem to cover the commonly produced weights. I remember when 250 and 275gr lead core expanding bullets were the heavy weight offerings. But no disagreements with your recommendations to use the heavyweights with a frangible lead jacketed bullet on the largest of game animals - if one chooses to use a highly frangible bullet. As you have stated, the extra lead and the lower impact velocity will both help ensure a deeper wound channel.

I've shot moose with this flavor of bullet in the distant past - the Sierra 250 grain spitzer boat tail bullets loaded in .338 Win Mag. These may have been called Game Kings? I've found these lead cores completely separated from the jacket on more than one animal, but the lead core maintained a significant percentage of its original weight and often penetrated the full width of the moose, to be found just under the hide on the far side ribs. MV was around 2700 fps. Dunno about the lead composition or jacket thickness of this Sierra bullet compared the current Bergers. In those days, these Sierras were about the heaviest bullet - with a reasonably high BC - available in .338 caliber, to my knowledge. Hornady made some 225gr Spire points. Speer made a 275gr round nose bullet. Nosler offered 250gr round nose Partitions. Winchester 250 gr round nose Silvertips. There were some 300 grain round nose solids. I think Barnes might have offered a 300 grain round nose lead core jacketed bullet, but these weren't commonly available where I shopped for bullets. I'm talking days before the development and production of the Barnes monolithics or any of the bonded core bullets - going back quite few years.[/QUOTE]

Your really comparing apples to oranges with the berger 250 gr to the Sierra 250 gr simply because of bullet design. The sierra has a relatively short ogive and relatively long bullet body length. In comparision, the 250 gr Berger has a very long ogive and very short body length. Not all 250 gr bullets are created equal for penetration results. The much longer ogive means that the easier to expand ogive contains much more weight then the much blunter Sierra bullet, as such, the expansion on the Sierra bullet deforms back into the full diameter bullet body MUCH sooner then the berger bullet, as such, the Sierra will have MUCH more weight retained at this point then compared to the Berger. Less weight, less penetration.

Had this been on a 300 lb whitetail/mule deer or even 400 lb caribou or 500-600 lb elk, likely there would be no discussion here but that is not what was targeted intentionally by this hunter and on top of that, he took a very challenging shot angle for any lead core/cup jacketed bullet at the velocity level he was driving this bullet to out of the Lapua.

A 250 gr Sierra would have likely penetrated noticeably more then the 250 gr Berger but again, that's a simple bullet design issue more then anything.

I just hate to see good bullets take a beating because they are used totally incorrectly. That is not fair for Berger.

 

[Broz]

You are correct Phorwath that there are lighter bullets for a 338. My mind being tuned for long range and a 338 being for large game just does not work that way. Below a 250 in a 338 is just not to my liking. I see 230's and lighter being better suited for a 30 cal than a 338. But again I am talking my personal preference from my own experiences.

I am admittedly not a moose hunter, but I do know what a 215 Hybrid or 230 OTM in a 30 cal will do when stuck in a large bull elk at 200 or less even when they are angled to exit far shoulder. Also what a 300 OTM has done to many elk from a 338 Lapua, 338 RUM, or 338 EDGE. The results are nothing like described in this thread. Me personally, when I draw my Moose Tag, and I hope I do, I will use a .338 / 300 OTM with 100% confidence at any distance. But I would probably not shoot the moose entering from a back ham. Not saying it is wrong, just not a shot I will take with confidence no matter what bullet I have loaded.

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

Its not the bullets fault in any way shape or form, nor is it Berger's fault. Instead of blaming anyone, it would be great to just hear, MAN, made a bad bullet choice on that one, know better for next time!!!

The bullets did fail to perform satisfactorily on this moose according to reports from the hunter and the guide. Everyone can blame anyone or anything they want for this failure to perform. A 250 grain bullet is not a lightweight .338 caliber bullet, and not everyone is a bullet expert. Stenger's been reloading for 20 years. The inference is he is uninformed and made a poor choice - that's where the fault lies when this bullet fails to perform on this moose. Or perhaps in addition, the shooter who's reported to have a lot of hunting experience under his belt with controlled expansion bullets, took a low percentage shot with a frangible bullet. Neither of these guys were rookies, but they evidently don't study and test bullets for a living either. I believe lots of guys could reach the conclusion that the Berger 250gr OTM, which has a heavier jacket than their 250gr Match Grade Elite Hunter and which is recommended for hunting by Berger, should have the muscle to harvest a moose.

 

[Korhil78]

Personally, I have never taken a Quartering away shot and probably never will. I have always waited for a frontal chest shot or broadside shot. Now if I was using a solid such as a barnes bullet, then I MIGHT attempt it. Otherwise, if I don't get the shot that I want, I either don't take the shot or wait.

In doing this, I have never lost an animal or ever had a problem with a bullet "failing". I dont believe that bullet manufacturers ever state that their bullet will take game while the animal is in an undesirable position for someone to be shooting at it in the first place. Especially an animal as big as a moose.

I believe this whole thread has been a valuable lesson for some people who may never post but have read the thread. This thread may save a lot of people some trouble by deciding not to take that kind of shot.

I am sure also that these guys were not some guys that just loaded up some rounds and went moose hunting. They sound educated in reloading to me but decided that to take an undesirable shot based on the performance of the berger bullets on other animals that they have killed. I am sure that they have learned a valuable lesson as well.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Perhaps the question should have been asked before assuming that the berger OTM 250 gr was a moose bullet. That is one great reason for sites like this. Learn before you assume and this so called failure could have been avoided and the OP would not have been pounding Berger for poor bullet performance when in fact, it likely performed just as it should be expected to for such a shot.

Again, a bit of common sense goes a long way. With the information we all have at our fingertips these days, one only has to sit down and type to get all the information they could possibly want. Now, certainly, you would get some that say, SURE, the 250 gr berger will work great, but the majority would say choose a stouter bullet for moose.

If confronted with the hard quartering away shot angle, I can not imagine most anyone would recommend the berger for moose but maybe I am wrong. Nuff said, just hope the OP and the hunter learned something, use the right bullet for the job, there are TONS of options out there and many that are WELL KNOWN to be perfect for such an application.

 

[Pdvdh]

I don't believe that bullet manufacturers ever state that their bullet will take game while the animal is in an undesirable position for someone to be shooting at it in the first place. Especially an animal as big as a moose.

Heck no. What would that do to sales? On the other hand, perhaps they should? But don't hold your breath...

 

[Fiftydriver]

Personally, I have never taken a Quartering away shot and probably never will. I have always waited for a frontal chest shot or broadside shot. Now if I was using a solid such as a barnes bullet, then I MIGHT attempt it. Otherwise, if I don't get the shot that I want, I either don't take the shot or wait.

In doing this, I have never lost an animal or ever had a problem with a bullet "failing". I dont believe that bullet manufacturers ever state that their bullet will take game while the animal is in an undesirable position for someone to be shooting at it in the first place. Especially an animal as big as a moose.

I believe this whole thread has been a valuable lesson for some people who may never post but have read the thread. This thread may save a lot of people some trouble by deciding not to take that kind of shot.

AMEN, and to do some research on bullets before choosing one.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The bullets did fail to perform satisfactorily on this moose according to reports from the hunter and the guide. Everyone can blame anyone or anything they want for this failure to perform. A 250 grain bullet is not a lightweight .338 caliber bullet, and not everyone is a bullet expert. Stenger's been reloading for 20 years. The inference is he is uninformed and made a poor choice - that's where the fault lies when this bullet fails to perform on this moose. Or perhaps in addition, the shooter who's reported to have a lot of hunting experience under his belt with controlled expansion bullets, took a low percentage shot with a frangible bullet. Neither of these guys were rookies, but they evidently don't study and test bullets for a living either. I believe lots of guys could reach the conclusion that the Berger 250gr OTM, which has a heavier jacket than their 250gr Match Grade Elite Hunter and is recommended for hunting by Berger, should have the muscle to harvest a moose.

The bullets performed to the level of their limitations. The problem I see here is a lack of understanding as to what those limitations are. Maybe Berger should provide some general guide lines.

If I was loading for a 338 Lapua, I would without thought pick the 300 gr bullets over the 250's because that's the way I think. Go heavy for caliber or go the heaviest your twist will allow within the limits of the chambering, especially with highly frangible bullets. That said, before this thread started, I would not have guessed that the 250's would have come apart like that from this rifle with the described shot on this game. The shot I am picturing is one entering somewhere between the ribs and the hind quarter which is into relatively soft tissue. That in my mind IS a REASONABLE shot and i would have expected penetration to the vitals, liver and lungs. If the shot was intentionally placed through the ham with hopes of penetration to the vitals with a frangible bullet, I would call that poor placement, asking for failure. What's common sense to some through experience is something that needs to be learned by others, including myself.

Back to the limitations of the bullet. It seems obvious now that the 250's are not a good choice for the big 338's. However, they probably are a good choice for the 338 WM and lesser 338 chamberings.

So, the way I see it, the bullets did not fail. They performed as designed within their limitations. The failure was the lack of understanding and available guidance on those limitations.