Long Range thick skin bullets

[Canadian Bushman]

Is nobody going to comment on the lack of evidence? We have an unknown shooter in alaska, a reloader, and two pictures of what seemingly look like the same piece of lead and some copper jacket. That in my opinion look pretty typical to a berger that performed as they do.

Every other claim has yet to be verified.

I would really like to see some pictures of meat and entrails, and possibly the remaining two bullets before a peformance evaluation can be decided, one way or the other.

 

[Pdvdh]

Is nobody going to comment on the lack of evidence?
I would really like to see some pictures of meat and entrails, and possibly the remaining two bullets before a peformance evaluation can be decided, one way or the other.

I share your desires. But how much abuse do you expect the OP to incur? He's already been blamed and criticized for his bullet selection. It was his bullet selection that failed - not the bullet. His buddy selected a poor shot location and it was at the wrong range. The OP has also been faulted for the title he placed on his Thread. It's not the OP's duty to convince any of us of anything. We turn this into an interrogation and what do you expect him to do?

You've got a hunter and his guide, reported to have observed three bullet hits and both are reported to be very disappointed with the bullet performance. We can believe it or reject it. Take it or leave it. Embrace it or flush it. Or we can dream up additional ways to beat up on the OP.

The OP doesn't owe us a thing. I believe he shared this information for our benefit. If others believe he Posted in order to slam Berger - they have that option... We can believe anything we want - thank God.

 

[Broz]

Is nobody going to comment on the lack of evidence? We have an unknown shooter in alaska, a reloader, and two pictures of what seemingly look like the same piece of lead and some copper jacket. That in my opinion look pretty typical to a berger that performed as they do.

Every other claim has yet to be verified.

I would really like to see some pictures of meat and entrails, and possibly the remaining two bullets before a peformance evaluation can be decided, one way or the other.

I will have to agree. Even though there has been some repeated valuable info here pertaining to bullet choice, characteristics, and placement. Supportive evidence to the title of this thread is indeed very lacking.

In my opinion to start a "fail" thread you should have your supportive data in order. And that goes for any bullet or type of gear.

Jeff

 

[stenger]

That's all I have for evidence. I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

If you do make sure the moose is standing perfectly broadside. Make sure the moose is at the perfect range so your bullet performs like a bullet should. Make sure the angle of the shot is perfect. Make sure the animal is not to close. Last be sure and get a masters degree in ballistics so you can understand how this bullet will perform when shot at large animal. Once you have completed all the above you can shoot your moose

Hope this helps

Peace.

 

[Pdvdh]

That's all I have for evidence. I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

If you do make sure the moose is standing perfectly broadside. Make sure the moose is at the perfect range so your bullet performs like a bullet should. Make sure the angle of the shot is perfect. Make sure the animal is not to close. Last be sure and get a masters degree in ballistics so you can understand how this bullet will perform when shot at large animal. Once you have completed all the above you can shoot your moose

Hope this helps

Peace.

Thanks for sharing your friend's experience. I appreciated it and it does help me. I'm sure you didn't know you were going to put on trial, otherwise you likely wouldn't have shared anything.

 

[Franklin]

That's all I have for evidence. I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

If you do make sure the moose is standing perfectly broadside. Make sure the moose is at the perfect range so your bullet performs like a bullet should. Make sure the angle of the shot is perfect. Make sure the animal is not to close. Last be sure and get a masters degree in ballistics so you can understand how this bullet will perform when shot at large animal. Once you have completed all the above you can shoot your moose

Hope this helps

Peace.

LMAO! This is how these bullet threads make me feel. I'll bet that your about the only one that has shot a moose with this bullet, so how are you suppose to know if it's good or not. Normally a 250gr bullet would be plenty.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

That's all I have for evidence. I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

If you do make sure the moose is standing perfectly broadside. Make sure the moose is at the perfect range so your bullet performs like a bullet should. Make sure the angle of the shot is perfect. Make sure the animal is not to close. Last be sure and get a masters degree in ballistics so you can understand how this bullet will perform when shot at large animal. Once you have completed all the above you can shoot your moose

Hope this helps

Peace.

I can understand your frustration but it doesn't take a masters degree in ballistics to pick between a 250 gr and 300 gr frangible bullet, especially if you were concerned in the first place about penetration by choosing the thicker jacketed OTM. I also agree that more evidence would have been helpful and helped remove doubt about what actually occurred but I take you at your word and don't see where you are trying to "bash" Berger as apparently you like Berger bullets overall.

When anyone posts a "fail" thread, there is going to be some amount of doubt and interrogation and there should be because the fact is that some folks with an axe to grind will post BS. The best way to mitigate that is have your ducks lined up with good evidence.

Like I said before, I think this thread has been educational and hopefully you've learned from this experience as well as others. Hopefully there won't be a next time, but if there is, take as many pics as you can.

 

[Pdvdh]

Subscribing to follow the battle... Popcorn anyone?

Nothing on this Forum could have been more predictable.

 

[Fiftydriver]

This Thread reports a hunter's experience: A guy shot an Alaskan bull moose with three .338 250gr Berger OTM bullets and these bullets failed to perform satisfactorily, in the opinion of both the shooter and his guide. We were provided some useful details on the circumstances of bullet use.

I appreciate the posting of this, and similar, user experience(s). Forum members can now digest this user report and decide whether or not this bullet is suitable for their own uses.

The OP stated that he selected this Berger bullet "in an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC", compared to the Barnes bullets. The OP knew that this bullet was advertised as having a thicker jacket than the 250gr Match Grade Elite Hunter, which Berger does advertise for hunting use. He states the 250 OTM was used "specifically for the thicker jacket".



This explains the portion of the Thread title - 'Long Range thick skin bullets!'. Long Range = "an attempt to gain a little more accuracy and BC". "thick skin bullets" = the OTM bullets have thicker jackets than the Berger 250gr Elite Hunter bullet. The rest of the Thread title 'Bergers failed' reflects the shared opinion of both the hunter and his guide, of this bullet's performance on the bull moose.

The OP never claimed the three shots constituted long range hunting, and neither does the Thread title.

No but reading the title implies that these bullets failed at long range which truly would be a failure but since they failed to penetrate at close range on heavy game, well, they did exactly what anyone should have expected them to do. That is my only point.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Is nobody going to comment on the lack of evidence? We have an unknown shooter in alaska, a reloader, and two pictures of what seemingly look like the same piece of lead and some copper jacket. That in my opinion look pretty typical to a berger that performed as they do.

Every other claim has yet to be verified.

I would really like to see some pictures of meat and entrails, and possibly the remaining two bullets before a peformance evaluation can be decided, one way or the other.

It would be nice but I suspect that the pictures your looking for were not taken. Often times in the bush, pictures are not the first thing your thinking about when your getting a big animal packed out.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I share your desires. But how much abuse do you expect the OP to incur? He's already been blamed and criticized for his bullet selection. It was his bullet selection that failed - not the bullet. His buddy selected a poor shot location and it was at the wrong range. The OP has also been faulted for the title he placed on his Thread. It's not the OP's duty to convince any of us of anything. We turn this into an interrogation and what do you expect him to do?

You've got a hunter and his guide, reported to have observed three bullet hits and both are reported to be very disappointed with the bullet performance. We can believe it or reject it. Take it or leave it. Embrace it or flush it. Or we can dream up additional ways to beat up on the OP.

The OP doesn't owe us a thing. I believe he shared this information for our benefit. If others believe he Posted in order to slam Berger - they have that option... We can believe anything we want - thank God.

I DO NOT believe the OP made this post to slam berger bullets. Unfortunately, many that read this that do not have experience with berger bullets or WHAT bullets SHOULD be used on big and heavy game will read this and could very easily take what has been posted as INCORRECT evidence that the berger bullet is not a good hunting bullet.

Again, this may not have been the OPs intention but having to deal with the public ALL THE TIME when they come to me asking about my opinion and hearing what many people have formed as opinion from reading posts on the web just like this one. Its amazing how many out there would read the first post, and take it for gospel that the problem was the bullet when all along the problem was simply using the wrong bullet for the job at hand.

Bad press is a very difficult thing to turn around. When its warranted, we should never hide bad performance but when Information like this gets out there simply because the hunter chooses the wrong bullet for the situation and gets a predictable bad result, then posts this information for everyone on the planet to read about. A large percentage of lower experience level hunters will read this and thing, MAN, better not use those berger bullets, they blow up on impact.

This is my only point. I spend many, MANY hours every week trying to reeducate new hunters and shooters that read things like this on the web and take it for truth without knowing much about the situation. Bad results, no matter weither they are based in reality or the result of poor decisions generally turn out to have the same results to the manufacturer, lose of business.

Again, when its warranted because of poor quality work by the company, so be it, but when its information out out there about bad results with a product SOLELY because of a bad decision by the consumer, I just have to stand up and voice my opinion on that one.

Only failure here was in bullet selection for the job at hand, no more no less.

 

[Broz]

When anyone posts a "fail" thread, there is going to be some amount of doubt and interrogation and there should be because the fact is that some folks with an axe to grind will post BS. The best way to mitigate that is have your ducks lined up with good evidence.

Correct... The words "Berger Failed" in the title sure looks like a bashing thread to me.

Bottom line is,

It is not even a little bit uncommon for a bull moose to take more than one shot to get him down. This one took 3 shots.

The bull was shot from a hard angle in the rear. A task for any bullet.

The bull is dead and was recovered.

But yet the first thing we want to do is start a controversial thread , with limited supporting data.

Hell no I would not have picked this bullet for a .338 Moose hunt.

Lets look at another recent example of a smaller , 230 gr Berger OTM and a larger moose.

One shot and dead. Post 12 and 19 I believe shows the bull.

http://www.weatherby.dk/showthread.php?7628-230-or-210-Berger/page2



....

 

[RTK]

As many have mentioned you must use the right bullet for a particular animal, shot or range, pretty simple as I see it.
Thankfully my 300 likes bergers and barnes, the berger 215 and barnes 200lrx, they both shoot well and within 1/2moa of each other to the distance I feel comfortable shooting game.
If I had a less than perfect shot where I needed to drive the bullet through the animal a fair distance, it would not be a hard choice which to use.
At least most of you guys have a choice, here in komnifornia we have lead free zones and soon to be state wide. That kinda limits one's choices...........I hunt out of state a lot

 

[Pdvdh]

More popcorn and drama please...

If the reader wants to claim the OP is lying, then there's nothing further to discuss. End of story. The rebuttal in defense of Berger (which is what this thread has predictably turned into) is as simple as - "I don't believe the OP". No need for the Trial. The OP's already told us that all the evidence he has, we have.

If the reader believes the OP's Posts and information, then this bullet failed to perform satisfactorily on this moose according to both the hunter and his guide, upon examination of three different bullet strikes. Reported to be a complete bullet performance disappointment on this bull moose. You doubt the opinion of the hunter, then perhaps the professional guide's opinion would carry more weight. We don't have the Webster's Dictionary definition, or the hunter's definition, or the guide's definition of failed to perform. Just failed to perform and failed big time.

Whether or not the OP that loaded the cartridges failed in the selection of bullet for the job at hand, the hunter that selected to use these bullets failed in his use of this bullet for the job at hand, or the professional guide that allowed the bullets to be used on the moose hunt failed in allowing this bullet selection for the job at hand, (if this is the true failure and moral of this Thread/story - all three failed equally) doesn't change the fact that collectively, three bullet strikes were deemed failed performance on this moose.

If the reader subscribes to the position that the Berger .338 250gr Berger OTM is obviously not a moose killing bullet, and should never be used on moose - shouldn't even be allowed in the same State with moose in it - then the appropriate Thread title would be "Berger .338 250gr OTM - Don't Use on Moose - Impending Failure", or "Don't use any .338 250gr Bergers on Moose".

The OP didn't come to this Forum discussing Berger bullets at large. Only the .338 250 OTM and his friend's experience when used on Moose. His message couldn't be clearer.

I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

Peace.

He didn't state never use a Berger bullet for anything. On the other hand, he certainly didn't tell us that the Berger .338 250gr OTM is a moose killing projectile - fired from a .338 Lapua. Perhaps there lies the rub...

The OP either lied, or the Berger bullet he loaded for his buddy failed to perform to acceptable standards on an Alaskan bull moose; according to his buddy, and according to his buddy's guide. Such a difficult thing to accept.