Long Range thick skin bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

I truly don't feel it would have made much difference, but for accuracy and proper info to readers. I don't think the bullet used was labeled by the manufacturer to be a "hunting" bullet. I was under the impression it was the OTM Tactical target?

Please correct me if I am wrong?

Jeff

That's true, but one can reasonably assume that the thinner skinned hunting version would not have performed any better, which to me is a moot point because based on what I've learned, the 250's should not be shot at game in larger 338's

 

[Broz]

That's true, but one can reasonably assume that the thinner skinned hunting version would not have performed any better, which to me is a moot point because based on what I've learned, the 250's should not be shot at game in larger 338's

I agree, and that was stated first in my post. But I don't feel you can say the Mfg. was at fault, like Steve suggested in his post. When we go out on our own and choose a bullet that we think would be better suited even though the Mfg. does not condone use of it for hunting.

Again, the target in my mind should have been a tougher jacket. But we can not put the blame for this instance on the Mfg for improper product labeling.

Jeff

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I truly don't feel it would have made much difference, but for accuracy and proper info to readers. I don't think the bullet used was labeled by the manufacturer to be a "hunting" bullet. It was indeed a OTM tactical target bullet"


Jeff

I stand corrected. What is the 250 g thinner skinned hunting bullet for?

Steve

 

[Tikkamike]

I would like to use this opportunity to bash Berger... but I wont. I will say that even with bullets sometimes there are variables in the metals used that make that bullet "fail" in the eyes of the user. A lot of people hate a lot of bullets. I prefer my mono metal Barnes, because in my mind they are all but fail proof... anyway in your case its hard to say what exactly happened. I recommend you either keep trying them and see if they continue to fail to meet your expectations... or try something different like a lead free. or maybe a partition or a bonded bullet.

I shoot 300SMK in my lapua and sometimes they blow giant holes in stuff and sometimes they dont open at all... its a giant bullet so it always kills but in my opinion sometimes it fails. the only answer is kill more stuff (preferably elk because you can kill a deer or goat with about anything) and see how your bullets perform.

 

[Pdvdh]

If the OP had used the 250gr Elite Hunter with similar results, or worse, then what? Why dance around the issue at hand? I think that's the subject being raised by RockyMntMT.

Thin-jacketed VLD style target bullets are now being recommended by Berger, and commonly employed for hunting large game by the masses. Where's the guidelines for use for the non-experts among the masses? The rules of thumb? These bullets are quite good for longer range hunting for a variety of reasons. So what about close range high velocity impacts? If it's so obvious, and plainly common knowledge as some members claim, that these thin-jacketed VLD bullets are terrible choices (a failure in bullet selection) for close range high velocity impacts on very large game animals, then why is this message so secretive? So difficult to find, read, and understand in any of the manufacturer's literature? Is it because this information is non-existent in print?

I think we all have a good feeling about how advertising and product literature works. But these thin-jacketed bullets have not been in common use until relatively recently. They're a significant departure in hunting bullet jacket thickness from non-Target style jacketed lead core bullets that have been used for the prior 50 years. Instead of solely focusing on their advantageous uses, might not some advice be reasonable for commonly encountered hunting circumstances and use, where they may not perform quite so brilliantly?

Use the conventional lead core jacketed hunting bullet (non-Target style), good for closer range higher velocity impacts at long range, and the negative consequence is it could be difficult to hit the game animal at long ranges. On the other hand, use the thinnest jacketed lead core bullets, quite good for longer range slower velocity impacts, at closer range high velocity impacts, and even with reasonably good shot placement on large game animals the negative consequence is these bullets can fail to penetrate and perform. This isn't any secret to the 'experts'. There's a difference, with different consequences, and this difference is not being communicated.

 

[Pdvdh]

I stand corrected. What is the 250gr thinner skinned hunting bullet for?

Steve

Bingo

 

[Beng]

Smaller game in cases with less volume.

 

[Pdvdh]

If the OP had used the 250gr Elite Hunter with similar results, or worse, then what? Why dance around the issue at hand? I think that's the subject being raised by RockyMntMT.

And RockyMntMT has just confirmed it.

I stand corrected. What is the 250 g thinner skinned hunting bullet for?

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I stand corrected. What is the 250 g thinner skinned hunting bullet for?

Steve

One more thing I'll mention Steve, some guys are a bit frustrated with the way this thread was titled and presented, as in "Berger Bullet Failure."

Now I think if I were the parties involved, I might post...

Lesson Learned, 250 Bergers Not a Good Choice for 338 RUM Hunting

...which is exactly what this boils down to.

Anticipating the question, "then why does Berger make and sell 250 gr 338 cal hunting bullets?"

Answer, for lesser 338 cartridges with lower velocities.
__________________
- Mark

...

 

[RTK]

.
I think that if there is a failure here it is created by the manufacture by labeling of the bullet in question a hunting bullet.
..

This is not meant too be a dig at anyone, but if you are going to get into the LR hunting game you should do your research and lots of reading about what you are getting into and what is needed.
I see this in so many things theses days. People go out and do something without understanding the basic principles of what they are doing. There is so much information available today there is no excuse for it. A little time on the net and you can have almost any question answered.
Since I started getting into long range hunting you would not believe the rash of crap some people have given me. You're unethical, it's stupid, can't be done, yada, yada, yada. Well that would be true if I took stupid shots or used the wrong equipment, thankfully I don't.

 

[Fiftydriver]

More popcorn and drama please...

If the reader wants to claim the OP is lying, then there's nothing further to discuss. End of story. The rebuttal in defense of Berger (which is what this thread has predictably turned into) is as simple as - "I don't believe the OP". No need for the Trial. The OP's already told us that all the evidence he has, we have.

I do not think anyone is questioning the results that occurred, in fact most on here are saying that is exactly what they would expect to happen with a 250 gr Berger out of a Lapua on a hard angling shot on a heavy animal.

No one that I have read is disputing the facts of what occurred. My only comment is that the results should have been totally expected and a surprise to no one. It seems the only ones that were surprised by the results of this choice in bullet for the job at hand was the OP, the hunter and the guide.

Again, poor choice of bullet does not mean that we are saying the OP is not giving an accurate account of what happened in the field. I think this thread has long ago lost its usefulness. Hopefully next time they load up some Lapua ammo for moose hunting it will be with a stouter bullet intended for use on moose at close range(where the shots occurred).

 

[rick523]

This is not meant too be a dig at anyone, but if you are going to get into the LR hunting game you should do your research and lots of reading about what you are getting into and what is needed.
I see this in so many things theses days. People go out and do something without understanding the basic principles of what they are doing. There is so much information available today there is no excuse for it. A little time on the net and you can have almost any question answered.
Since I started getting into long range hunting you would not believe the rash of crap some people have given me. You're unethical, it's stupid, can't be done, yada, yada, yada. Well that would be true if I took stupid shots or used the wrong equipment, thankfully I don't.

+1 what he said..

 

[Pdvdh]

I do not think anyone is questioning the results that occurred, in fact most on here are saying that is exactly what they would expect to happen with a 250 gr Berger out of a Lapua on a hard angling shot on a heavy animal.

No one that I have read is disputing the facts of what occurred. My only comment is that the results should have been totally expected and a surprise to no one. It seems the only ones that were surprised by the results of this choice in bullet for the job at hand was the OP, the hunter and the guide.

Hopefully next time they load up some Lapua ammo for moose hunting it will be with a stouter bullet intended for use on moose at close range(where the shots occurred).

Clearly not everyone is stating they expected this bullet to perform this way on moose. Some have questioned that this could be one of the few moose ever killed using this bullet. And some experienced, knowledgeable members have expressed their surprise that this 250gr bullet would perform this poorly on this bull moose.

Nevertheless, IF the correct interpretation of the knowledgeable majority is that these thin-jacketed Berger bullets lack stoutness for use on the largest of big game animals at close range, and that no one should ever be surprised at disappointing performance when they use these target-style Berger bullets on close range moose-sized game, then this message is obviously not common knowledge amongst the mass users of these bullets.

Where do they obtain this information? This Thread? Someone provide the references for sources of this information regarding this 'correct' application of the Berger target-style bullets for use on large game at close range.

I'm not surprised by the end result of the use of this Berger bullet on this adult Alaskan bull moose. But I've hunted with rifles for 44 years using many different hunting bullets in various calibers and cartridges, 35 of those years in Alaska where moose are a commonly hunted game animal. My surprise is the presumption that Berger bullet consumers would understand the proper uses of these target-style bullets, relatively recently promoted as hunting bullets, when no bullet application information exists in print. IF it's true that there are commonly encountered hunting circumstances where these target-style bullets should never, ever, be used, then there's good potential for disappointment for newcomers to target-style hunting bullets.

The most knowledgeable users have already provided some guidelines for Berger bullet use. Guidelines that could be put in print without destroying Berger's business. Ammunition manufacturers have done this in the past.

However, notifying consumers that thin-jacketed, target style, lead core hunting bullets should never be used on close range moose because they're not stout enough? Well, I suppose moose hunters that reload their own ammunition will simply have to read this Thread.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

This is an artist rendition of what the OPs buddy encountered, explaning all to well why the bullet failed.