Long Range thick skin bullets

[varmintH8R]

This thread is becoming confusing. It's like the infamous "it depends what the definition of 'is' is".

I had to frame a wall finishing my basement. I took a 8" Phillips screwdriver to drive the framing nails. It failed to drive them. Is it the screwdrivers fault? I guess, if you blame inanimate objects for things like this. The good news is that my screwdriver doesn't have feelings so it doesn't care if people say it failed. The claw hammer has really been busting his balls, though.

The good news (for me) in this thread is that:

#1 it is really entertaining

#2. I can go back to loading Berger bullets. For a while I quit, as they are just too dangerous and magically good at killing. I was afraid to have them in my house, lest one escape its box and sneak to my kids' rooms...

The funny thing about this thread is that when you take all of the emotion out everyone pretty much agrees on the facts. It takes three bolts of 250gr Berger lightning to drop a hard quartering moose. Not ideal bullet selection (weight), range, or shot selection. Berger bullets do a lot of things really well. There are some trade-offs associated with this (like when I want to turn the rifle around after xxx rounds of load development). They are well designed, but not magic.

End of day, we learned something, we were engaged and entertained, a moose is down, hope it is delicious...

I doubt that the business interests of any of the major bullet manufacturers have strongly shifted since the original post.... Take a deep breath.... And wait for the next go round in a few weeks. It's huntin' season!

Looking forward to the next one

 

[bigngreen]

The bullet functioned identically three times in a row it sounds like, this thread is some valuable insight IMO to how this particular bullet will react as it's normal function with a high speed impact at close range. Most of the info I've read on this bullet has been longer range hits or on lighter game and it's performance was excellent as reported by the shooter, all this adds to our knowledge on this particular bullet and what shot angles, ranges and velocities are within it's normal operation.

Not all bullets are suited to every situation, that's why we go rounds about them and how we want to see them function. If you load a great long range bullet you simply can not expect it to function at that same level up close, or if you load a great bullet for close range you can not expect anything but disappointment at long range, there is not bullet that has successfully functioned at all ranges and impact velocities equally.

Any time you reload for someone else your put into a difficult situation and I feel for the OP for the position he was put into by the shooter who obviously is not going to take responsibility for putting the bullet in a position that is outside it's normal operating range.
The couple guys I load for or help load have a VERY clear understanding after I'm done talking with them of their required shot placement and impact velocities and normal function of the bullet in use, I personally don't load a bullet I don't shoot myself and know how it functions for the reasons this thread has made clear!

 

[extreme]

That's all I have for evidence. I hope this helps someone. Don't use a berger 250 gr for shooting moose because they will fail

If you do make sure the moose is standing perfectly broadside. Make sure the moose is at the perfect range so your bullet performs like a bullet should. Make sure the angle of the shot is perfect. Make sure the animal is not to close. Last be sure and get a masters degree in ballistics so you can understand how this bullet will perform when shot at large animal. Once you have completed all the above you can shoot your moose

Hope this helps

Peace.

Tough **** if they wont take your word... You now know that if you use BERGER bullets ,you must also carry a camera to take pictures of the Berger failures and the Grizzly Bear that wants that moose..

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Is the moose still dead?

 

[Broz]

Is the moose still dead?

Yes, but not dead enough. For some you need a series pencil size holes from just left of the anal port to the tongue. To be considered dead enough.

.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Yes, but not dead enough. For some you need a series pencil size holes from just left of the anal port to the tongue. To be considered dead enough.

.

I actually did that once, first deer I ever shot at. I was a little "hyped" up and did not have the proper guidance. 14 shots later I could still see it breathing, looked like swiss cheese when we skinned it out. Worst part was it was already dead on its feet from a double lung shot when it got to me. I was young and undisciplined, I hit it every time, but it did not fall over so I thought I missed. Did not find and fragments stupid 20g slugs.

 

[Pdvdh]

Tough **** if they wont take your word... You now know that if you use BERGER bullets ,you must also carry a camera to take pictures of the Berger failures and the Grizzly Bear that wants that moose..

stenger provided this picture - see Post #133.

The cause of death was a simple case of physiological shock, brought on when the bull looked and saw he'd been skinned alive.

 

[elkaholic]

This is why I shoot my own. I have no one to blame for failures or I can brag about my success; if it happens

 

[extreme]

stenger provided this picture - see Post #133.

The cause of death was a simple case of physiological shock, brought on when the bull looked and saw he'd been skinned alive.

The cause of death must be correct because I do not see the pencil size holes
from left of the anal port to the tongue..

 

[MontanaRifleman]

going down hill fellas....

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I want to know what information is available to hunters that want to use Berger hunting bullets on large game that tells them that may not be a good idea unless they are at a specific range and impact velocity and the proper proportion of quartering shot that is acceptable. I am not sure that the average hunter has this information available. A 250g hunting bullet launched from a large magnum rifle in the mind of most people should be good medicine for hunting anything in the world. Is the needed information that hunters and re loaders need to pick the proper bullet in the loading manuals?

I think that if there is a failure here it is created by the manufacture by labeling of the bullet in question a hunting bullet. I believe that the bullet did function as designed. I don't think that the average hunter comes to this web site to find information as to how to use a Berger bullet to hunt with. A quartering shot behind the ribs to the front shoulder is generally considered a good hunting shot. And taught to young hunters in hunter ed. The quartering to shot through the shoulder bone is not.

I have read this whole thread and the only clarification I need is how did this hunter go wrong in choosing the bullet?

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I want to know what information is available to hunters that want to use Berger hunting bullets on large game that tells them that may not be a good idea unless they are at a specific range and impact velocity and the proper proportion of quartering shot that is acceptable. I am not sure that the average hunter has this information available. A 250g hunting bullet launched from a large magnum rifle in the mind of most people should be good medicine for hunting anything in the world. Is the needed information that hunters and re loaders need to pick the proper bullet in the loading manuals?

I think that if there is a failure here it is created by the manufacture by labeling of the bullet in question a hunting bullet. I believe that the bullet did function as designed. I don't think that the average hunter comes to this web site to find information as to how to use a Berger bullet to hunt with. A quartering shot behind the ribs to the front shoulder is generally considered a good hunting shot. And taught to young hunters in hunter ed. The quartering to shot through the shoulder bone is not.

I have read this whole thread and the only clarification I need is how did this hunter go wrong in choosing the bullet?

Steve

Good points and good question. How did the hunter go wrong with picking the bullet? Here's my observation that I already posted. The hunter/loader knew they were dealing with frangible bullets and picked the thicker skinned bullet for better integrity. Why not also pick the heavier option? It only makes sense to me. That said, I would have never guessed the 250 Berger to perform in this way on this shot, which I have also already posted. For me, picking the 300 bullet over the 250 bullet out of a RUM is a no brainer, especially when hunting large game.

I agree that it would be a good idea for Berger to provide some guidance such as

Max effective velocity for this bullet in soft tissue is.....

Max effective velocity for this bullet in dense tissue and heavy bone is....

 

[Broz]

I think that if there is a failure here it is created by the manufacture by labeling of the bullet in question a hunting bullet.

I truly don't feel it would have made much difference, but for accuracy and proper info to readers. I don't think the bullet used was labeled by the manufacturer to be a "hunting" bullet. It was indeed a OTM tactical target bullet"


Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

One more thing I'll mention Steve, some guys are a bit frustrated with the way this thread was titled and presented, as in "Berger Bullet Failure."

Now I think if I were the parties involved, I might post...

Lesson Learned, 250 Bergers Not a Good Choice for 338 RUM Hunting

...which is exactly what this boils down to.

Anticipating the question, "then why does Berger make and sell 250 gr 338 cal hunting bullets?"

Answer, for lesser 338 cartridges with lower velocities.