Long Range thick skin bullets

[Fiftydriver]

This is an artist rendition of what the OPs buddy encountered, explaning all to well why the bullet failed.

Who would even think up something like that!!! I think this Zombie craze has gone a bit to far!!! Course I do have ALOT of ammo laying around that could be put to good use in the handguns!!!

 

[rick523]

This is an artist rendition of what the OPs buddy encountered, explaning all to well why the bullet failed.

LMAO!! Maybe we should change your log in to IMASICKMANlightbulb

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Clearly not everyone is stating they expected this bullet to perform this way on moose. Some have questioned that this could be one of the few moose ever killed using this bullet. And some experienced, knowledgeable members have expressed their surprise that this 250gr bullet would perform this poorly on this bull moose.

Nevertheless, IF the correct interpretation of the knowledgeable majority is that these thin-jacketed Berger bullets lack stoutness for use on the largest of big game animals at close range, and that no one should ever be surprised at disappointing performance when they use these target-style Berger bullets on close range moose-sized game, then this message is obviously not common knowledge amongst the mass users of these bullets.

Where do they obtain this information? This Thread? Someone provide the references for sources of this information regarding this 'correct' application of the Berger target-style bullets for use on large game at close range.

I'm not surprised by the end result of the use of this Berger bullet on this adult Alaskan bull moose. But I've hunted with rifles for 44 years using many different hunting bullets in various calibers and cartridges, 35 of those years in Alaska where moose are a commonly hunted game animal. My surprise is the presumption that Berger bullet consumers would understand the proper uses of these target-style bullets, relatively recently promoted as hunting bullets, when no bullet application information exists in print. IF it's true that there are commonly encountered hunting circumstances where these target-style bullets should never, ever, be used, then there's good potential for disappointment for newcomers to target-style hunting bullets.

The most knowledgeable users have already provided some guidelines for Berger bullet use. Guidelines that could be put in print without destroying Berger's business. Ammunition manufacturers have done this in the past.

However, notifying consumers that thin-jacketed, target style, lead core hunting bullets should never be used on close range moose because they're not stout enough? Well, I suppose moose hunters that reload their own ammunition will simply have to read this Thread.

It's not that these bullets can't be used at close range on a big animal like a moose... I'm very sure they can. The question is what are the effective velocity parameters of the various bullets? My guess is, that had a 300 gr bullet been used out of the same rifle with less MV and more mass, this thread wouldn't exist. Had the 250 gr bullet been shot from a 338 WM, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes, the manufacturer should provide guidance.

 

[Pdvdh]

Yes, the manufacturer should provide guidance.

Members have already provided some good application advice for these target style bullets on big game - rules of thumb.

Use the heaviest weight bullet offered for any given caliber in order to maximize penetration on the largest of large game.

Recommend a heavier weight bullet within caliber for high velocity (magnum) cartridges, or when shots on game could be close and impact velocity remains high.

Perhaps the bullets shouldn't even be considered for moose or brown bear at close range, as some have expressed. I personally don't use them for either of those animals. Some recommendations could still be provided and be helpful, without going that far.

There are a lot of hunters that have yet to use these target-style thin-jacketed bullets for hunting. They excel for long range hunting because the thin jackets allow for a high degree of uniformity and precision during the manufacturing process. This translates into very accurate bullets, which is why they're used for, and called, target bullets. However their highly frangible thin jackets and lead core don't excel equally as well at high impact velocity on really large game animals, where substantial penetration is required to impart fatal damage.

 

[bigngreen]

I've never had a problem with a frangible bullet at close range and high impact velocity but then again I change my acceptable shot placement as dictated by common sense!! No need for Berger or any other bullet maker to hold my hand, I put my big boy pants on before going hunting!!!

 

[new shooter]

Boy i hope every one quit using bergers. I nead 1000 300 gr berger and 1000 230 grs and 1000 215gr.

 

[MMERSS]

I'm planning on elk hunting in a few weeks and may take a 300 Win Mag. I think I may have a chance of shooting an elk quartering away at 50 yards just as much of a chance of a long range broadside shot. Let me seeeee what I have in the cabinet to reload...210 LRAB's, 180 AB's, 200 AB's, 168 Bergers, 180 Bergers, 190 Bergers, 200 Bergers, 215 Bergers, 230 Bergers, 168 A-Max, 178 A-Max, 208 A-Max.

I choose 168 Bergers. If I end up shooting an elk three times at 75 yards quartering away will anyone here have a problem with my bullet selection......after all they are labeled hunting bullets?

I think this thread has served it's purpose....Time to take what has been posted, learn and move on to make our hunting as sound as practical.

I would however like to try the 168's on a Zombie moose.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Boy i hope every one quit using bergers. I nead 1000 300 gr berger and 1000 230 grs and 1000 215gr.

+1!!!

 

[Pdvdh]

I've never had a problem with a frangible bullet at close range and high impact velocity but then again I change my acceptable shot placement as dictated by common sense!! No need for Berger or any other bullet maker to hold my hand, I put my big boy pants on before going hunting!!!

If only you'd been there to coach this errant, uninformed, uneducated, inexperienced moose hunter. Poor hapless soul, completely lacking common sense. The one that was able to afford a guided moose hunt in Alaska. The rich guy that's hunted all over the world, yet should have known better. Remember him, he's the hunter that failed. You could have invoked your common sense, help him pull on his rubber underpants... transformed him from a boy into a man. Easy peasy.

The deadliest aiming point using this bullet after the bull moose faced away would have been his gonads. Full exposure. The bullet might have fully penetrated. This based on a factual account of a local hunter that dropped a brown bear as it jumped over a downfall - one shot to the nuts - lights out. If it shut down a big brown bear, splatter this frangible high speed bullet there and the bull would drop in his tracks - just like on the videos!

One more possibility for insertion in an application guide for high speed frangible bullet use on large, dangerous game.

 

[extreme]

I've never had a problem with a frangible bullet at close range and high impact velocity but then again I change my acceptable shot placement as dictated by common sense!! No need for Berger or any other bullet maker to hold my hand, I put my big boy pants on before going hunting!!!

I must say that you are 100% correct...At 100 yards put the bullet in spot and at 1000 yards in another..There is one other way carry one bullet for close range and one for long range... Love the BIG BOY PANTS ..lightbulb

 

[Buttermilk]

Interesting tread!

I once shot (in 2010) a young 88 lb whitetail buck at 41 paces that was quartering hard towards me.

Gun was a T/C Encore 15" bbl 30-06 AI. Bullet was a Berger 168 Hunting VLD @ 2650 FPS.

Shot was placed just behind the left shoulder. Bullet took out the left lung, just clipped the right lung rear tip, and basically came apart trashing the entire inside of the young buck. Fragments of the bullet were found all the way at the back of the deer at the rectum area. Bullet did not exit. Deer was dead.

Another bullet likely would have held together and completely passed through the deer, but I wasn't complaining. I had a dead deer, and a mile plus drag back to the truck. ��

I used that bullet expecting to shoot a deer at 300 yds, but instead he pops outta nowhere right there.

Not that this has anything to do with the OP topic, just illustrates how bullet performance can be impacted by distance , etc.

Regards
Rog

 

[Pdvdh]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/moose-down-778m-121909/

A new Forum member falls into the 'failure' category, because of errant bullet selection on another moose hunt. Selected the 210 gr Berger VLD match bullets for his 300 Win Mag. That would have to be the conclusion, IF your position is that Berger and other target-style bullets don't fail when used on moose-sized game animals. That's not my conclusion. First bullet doesn't make it to the spinal column at 850 yd.

Second bullet doesn't expand while entering between the ribs - a successful heart shot. Yes the bull moose did die. So maybe the hunter didn't fail after all?

Now the member is researching bullets in preparation for next years moose hunt.

Forgot to mention in the initial post, but I'm very interested to find out if the hunting 210 gr Berger VLDs stay together better than the target version. Would have preferred that the first shot break the spine.

 

[Pdvdh]

Additional possibilities to lay the blame on - for sources of failure:
1) He was too close to the bull when he fired the shot that failed to reach the spinal column.
2) He was too far from the bull when he fired the shot that failed to expand.

Whoops... I forgot... both shots were at 850yds.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/moose-down-778m-121909/

A new Forum member falls into the 'failure' category, because of errant bullet selection on another moose hunt. Selected the 210 gr Berger VLD match bullets for his 300 Win Mag. That would have to be the conclusion, IF your position is that Berger and other target-style bullets don't fail when used on moose-sized game animals. That's not my conclusion. First bullet doesn't make it to the spinal column at 850 yd.

Second bullet doesn't expand while entering between the ribs - a successful heart shot. Yes the bull moose did die. So maybe the hunter didn't fail after all?

Now the member is researching bullets in preparation for next years moose hunt.

Paul, You will note the difference in thread title and tone. 788m Moose Down vs 210 Berger Bullet Failure.

Yes, it appears the hunter may have shot beyond the capability of the bullet and maybe the bullet's HP was blocked or damaged.

In both cases, the bulls are dead and recovered and lessons are learned.