stenger
Well-Known Member
I was there I pulled the trigger. When I refer to we I was talking about my hunting buddies
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Long Range thick skin bullets
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Broz
Well-Known Member
"Range 760"
"shoulder hit"
"pencil hole in pencil hole out"
"deer ran away with busted shoulder"
" we found the bullet in the dirt"
So the bullet just fell out on the ground or did you have to dig for it?
Did you recover the deer or not?
Jeff
winmag
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm
Well, I have read, but avoided commenting this whole thread for weeks.
I am not a Berger user, so ill refrain from any comment on them that could be mis construed as such.
Q:
You'd think, a 250 gr 338 pill of any mfg would have the SD to dump a moose at most any range till you get waaaaay out there.
Why is it, that as soon as Berger is mentioned, in conjunction with bad experience(s) LOOKOUT. You gotta have a PHD, Bachelors, & Masters in rocket surgery & a hi def/ hi speed camera to back up your experience?
A:
I understand such hype about Bergers, considering this is a Long Range site, but I've also seen some terrible advise to newer guys who will likely never shoot far enough to benefit from these bullets.
Bergers may be the best thing going for the dedicated ELR crowd. But I'd venture to guess Most members are not yet ELR guys.
Alot of members aspire to be, & jump head first on the Berger bandwagon without developing the knowledge & skill to take advantage of them. It's no wonder there are new stories every year with the exact same topic "Berger failure" & 8-9 times out of 10 it's blowing up at close range, & high speed, or not opening at all.
It's also no wonder that with as many dedicated ELR guys they get ****ed when a less experienced guys write "Berger failed" in their posts, when they weren't used the way ELR guys use them with great success.
In reality these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT styles of hunters.
ELR has time to wait for that 1 shot, usually has dedicated equipment, & time devoted to take advantage of these bullets.
Avg-to mid- to long range, guys (which I'm guessing make up the vast majority of members here) have varied levels of experience, & equipment, & skill.
***but many aspire to be ELR guys & get quality advise from ELR guys about what they(ELR) use. Then those guys seeking advise figure "if it's good for so & so it's good for me"***
See where this is going?
There is a step missing in the ladder here. Many don't get it.
What works great for so & so ISN'T always the best choice for aspiring ELR guys.
There are much better bullet mfg's & choices, that fit a wide variety of shot angles, game size, range, & impact speed for hunting styles other than ELR.
For the Dedicated ELR guys there are very few choices.
In short, I think it's beyond rediculous for someone to constantly prove & re prove bullet failure. Also beyond rediculous to constantly have to prove & re prove improper bullet choice/placement.
Plain & simple answer is don't use a frag bullet if you may get varying shot angles at close range or do not have time to wait for the animal to turn perfectly broadside, or run off a few hundred more yards so your bullet is going slow enough to work properly.
Then we can avoid Berger failure threads, & forensic science requirements for such threads.
Match your bullet to your hunting style. Don't claim it's the best or worst bullet ever. & we can avoid these threads.
Berger has done alot for promoting hunting at Long Range for all of us LR hunters. They deserve credit for that.
I don't however, think they deserve any special treatment etc. like possibly changing the thread title! I'd like to see/know who & how it got changed.
Broz
Well-Known Member
Maybe I am way off base here. But it is possible that hunters that use them at all distances might possible know more about how they do work in the field than guys that simply read about them??
Call me crazy, but I think it could be possible??
Holy crap guys lets be realistic. There are way more successful hunts with Bergers on this site than any other bullet. Most are not ELR at all. Want proof ? here are 16 pages of proof right here.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/
How many of these would we consider ELR?
I take first year hunters out almost every year. They listen and shoot my rifle. All kind of of distances and we have yet to loose an animal.
No, I don't recommend them for everything and every distance or caliber. But the "failures" of them, on these dead animals, are way less than the success's.
There are so many people using them you are bound to get some bad reports. Just like Leupold scopes.
Jeff
Call me crazy, but I think it could be possible??
Holy crap guys lets be realistic. There are way more successful hunts with Bergers on this site than any other bullet. Most are not ELR at all. Want proof ? here are 16 pages of proof right here.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/
How many of these would we consider ELR?
I take first year hunters out almost every year. They listen and shoot my rifle. All kind of of distances and we have yet to loose an animal.
No, I don't recommend them for everything and every distance or caliber. But the "failures" of them, on these dead animals, are way less than the success's.
There are so many people using them you are bound to get some bad reports. Just like Leupold scopes.
Jeff
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Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed
Mark,
I have no doubt that stenger learned lessons, as did the hunter and his guide. And I have no doubt they will act on those lessons.
These guys aren't rookies. They witnessed three bullet strikes on the bull, field dressed the animal, recovered some bullets, AND they collectively deemed it bullet failure. Who was better positioned to make the call? Better yet, who's positioned to make the judgement call on their behalf. (Don't need lectured on Len's rights to remove/edit Threads/Posts) Will the creation of a 3-page definition of the word "fail" change their opinions/conclusions? Or striking the word fail from the Title? Their collective opinion is no longer represented within the title.
You seem to support that removal. Is that how you want the expression of experiences and opinion controlled? What about when it doesn't suite your preference? Are the pleasantries of holding hands around the campfire with solely the like-minded worth it?
I've read that the bull died numerous times, and numerous times its been inferred dead bull = successful bullet performance. Really? Why don't the OP, the hunter, and his guide deem that bullet success? Because the only success that the confirmed dead bull conveys is that he didn't die later, without recovery.
Mark,
I have no doubt that stenger learned lessons, as did the hunter and his guide. And I have no doubt they will act on those lessons.
These guys aren't rookies. They witnessed three bullet strikes on the bull, field dressed the animal, recovered some bullets, AND they collectively deemed it bullet failure. Who was better positioned to make the call? Better yet, who's positioned to make the judgement call on their behalf. (Don't need lectured on Len's rights to remove/edit Threads/Posts) Will the creation of a 3-page definition of the word "fail" change their opinions/conclusions? Or striking the word fail from the Title? Their collective opinion is no longer represented within the title.
You seem to support that removal. Is that how you want the expression of experiences and opinion controlled? What about when it doesn't suite your preference? Are the pleasantries of holding hands around the campfire with solely the like-minded worth it?
I've read that the bull died numerous times, and numerous times its been inferred dead bull = successful bullet performance. Really? Why don't the OP, the hunter, and his guide deem that bullet success? Because the only success that the confirmed dead bull conveys is that he didn't die later, without recovery.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Some seem to have forgot the posts of 250gr Nosler Accubonds not making it though elk or the plethora of Barnes than have not opened or blow their petals of and came to an early halt.
I can't find anywhere in any manufactures literature where there are specific game animals or shot angles assigned to each specific bullet, or any that tell you to load a specific bullet in a specific chambering. Why is it all of the sudden that Berger is the only bullet manufacture that should be doing this?
I've seen no info from Nosler that their ALR will blows like a grenade, some guys are seeing less penetration than a Ballistic tip yet not a whisper? Heck, this forum has the best info on the ALR out there and no one is throwing a fit that Nosler has corrupted the internet with their power!
I've been shooting the 300 OTM's at game since they came out, I've found the lowest and softest hit range I'd take with them, it was not a bullet failure it was as far as I could push it for that light animal like small deer or antelope, elk I have not found the limit with that bullet yet.
I've also found the limits on some TSX and Accubonds, all would have made epic fail threads but the reality most were just me finding the limits with that bullet and chambering, every shooter will go through the same process for themselves but it seems more popular to not just report the info but to make a production of it to gather ax grinders!
I can't find anywhere in any manufactures literature where there are specific game animals or shot angles assigned to each specific bullet, or any that tell you to load a specific bullet in a specific chambering. Why is it all of the sudden that Berger is the only bullet manufacture that should be doing this?
I've seen no info from Nosler that their ALR will blows like a grenade, some guys are seeing less penetration than a Ballistic tip yet not a whisper? Heck, this forum has the best info on the ALR out there and no one is throwing a fit that Nosler has corrupted the internet with their power!
I've been shooting the 300 OTM's at game since they came out, I've found the lowest and softest hit range I'd take with them, it was not a bullet failure it was as far as I could push it for that light animal like small deer or antelope, elk I have not found the limit with that bullet yet.
I've also found the limits on some TSX and Accubonds, all would have made epic fail threads but the reality most were just me finding the limits with that bullet and chambering, every shooter will go through the same process for themselves but it seems more popular to not just report the info but to make a production of it to gather ax grinders!
Interesting, I had a similar experience last hunting season spotting behind my gun on a mule deer with the 338 Lapua. Only difference was the 300 OTM and 980 yards. Deer had a pencil hole in, as all of them do, and approximately a 1" hole out. The deer took off running and tipped over at about 50 or so yards.
When we recovered the deer there was a large amount of innards protruding from the exit hole. It was almost like the bullet sucked half the insides through the hole. The deer was shot thru the lungs and the bullet traveled thru the heart blowing a good sized hole thru it....and the deer still ran off. Yes I have pictures better yet the shot was on video. Those belong to the hunter and not for your pleasure. Sorry.
That bullet and shot were perfect. Sometimes the brain just doesn't want to stop right after impact. If this was the case pro boxers wouldn't last past the first good head punch.
Broz
Well-Known Member
Agreed, maybe some of the Haters or whiners should go to that little box in the upper right corner of every page and type the Mfg. name of their choice and then follow it with failure.lightbulb
Plenty of reading about those "premium hunting bullets" boys...
and Paul, you can take your popcorn with you.
Jeff
You've simply missed the Thread, or chosen to neglect any reference to, or mention of, it. http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/nosler-accubond-long-range-problem-120135/ The Nosler .277 150gr has been maligned on this Forum for failure to sustain launches exceeding ~3000 fps. The OP even used a negative title there also. Notice the word problem? There have been 351 posts to date. A pleasant Thread all in all, even though the subject was about the failure of the .277 150gr ABLR.
Are you aware of any Nosler thread alterations to the benefit of Nosler Bullet Company? That could make a difference. With respect to throwing fits, the Nosler problem thread has 351 posts and no one's got their shorts in a knot. This Threads only at 211 Posts and it'll likely be shut down before it reaches 300, let alone 351. The primary difference is members don't blame the Nosler problem reporters like they do the Berger problem reporters. Evidently because some believe Berger bullets are infallible. That only leaves room for the consumers of Berger bullets to fail.
stenger got hen-picked to death here. While comparing the ratio of successful Berger stories reported on this Forum to the number of problematic Berger stories reported on this Forum, you need to include the pro-Berger camp "fear" factor. Some don't dare enter the fray.
Agreed, maybe some of the Haters or whiners should go to that little box in the upper right corner of every page and type the Mfg. name of their choice and then follow it with failure.lightbulb
Plenty of reading about those "premium hunting bullets" boys...
and Paul, you can take your popcorn with you.
Jeff
Finally Jeff,
I had no doubt you'd come thru for me. That's why I could place the popcorn post with ultimate confidence. You're the primary reason for that confidence.
You should really consider allowing the members to post the problems they experience with Berger bullets without blaming them for their ineptness, and without resting until and unless your opinion is accepted by them. The only real fits being thrown here are by members that refuse to accept the experiences and/or opinions of the those posting Berger failures. Stop trying to force feed the Berger threads to your satisfaction, and these Berger bullet threads could proceed similar to the Nosler threads. The added benefit is your shorts won't get so tight.
Oops. I had to edit to add the "we're all buddies" grins
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Broz
Well-Known Member
No tight shorts here Pauly. You are the only guy I know that has been complaining about a bullets performance for years and still uses them. As far as I remember it started with your disappointment on the wounded bear you killed at 10'.
But you kept using them.
Then I remember the disappointment in performance with your gut shot sheep.
But you kept using them.
Then you fiddled with the tips till they blew up on impact of I believe a caribou. Lot of pics there.
Are you still using them?
Find where I reported any failures of the bullets I used before I switched to Bergers.
Bet you can't. But you can find where I suggested other bullets for some applications.
I sit and read while you haters whine and poke insinuations about me till I was full of it.
I only post facts of what I do and see. Well supported facts, I will add. And I have killed more game with the Bergers than any of you jumping in here playing god.
Very little if anything you have posted in this thread has any real valuable content. You have acted like a little school girl since the beginning with your worthless posts about popcorn. I stayed out of it at first, but I got sick of it.
And while I am at it I call BS on the post from stenger about shooting a deer at 760 yards through the shoulder and it penciling in and out the shoulders. The deer runs off and he finds the unharmed bullet. If this is true he needs to buy a lottery ticket.
Anybody else got enough hair to agree??
Love
Jeff
But you kept using them.
Then I remember the disappointment in performance with your gut shot sheep.
But you kept using them.
Then you fiddled with the tips till they blew up on impact of I believe a caribou. Lot of pics there.
Are you still using them?
Find where I reported any failures of the bullets I used before I switched to Bergers.
Bet you can't. But you can find where I suggested other bullets for some applications.
I sit and read while you haters whine and poke insinuations about me till I was full of it.
I only post facts of what I do and see. Well supported facts, I will add. And I have killed more game with the Bergers than any of you jumping in here playing god.
Very little if anything you have posted in this thread has any real valuable content. You have acted like a little school girl since the beginning with your worthless posts about popcorn. I stayed out of it at first, but I got sick of it.
And while I am at it I call BS on the post from stenger about shooting a deer at 760 yards through the shoulder and it penciling in and out the shoulders. The deer runs off and he finds the unharmed bullet. If this is true he needs to buy a lottery ticket.
Anybody else got enough hair to agree??
Love
Jeff
RTK
Well-Known Member
No dog in this fight because I haven't used any berger's for large game hunting, although I do find it hard too doubt what Broz has posted, he has documented multiple times (with pictures) how these bullets perform.
I have only recently got into the long range hunting game (been hunting for 43 years) and will be using the 215's on my deer/elk hunt this year, but will also be taking along some barnes 200lrx's, I know Jeff is not a fan of them, they haven't failed me yet from 100-400yrds on large game. I also live in komnifornia which limits my bullet selection drastically in certain zones..........
I have NO doubt that the berger's will perform perfectly at any range I shoot with proper shot placement
I have only recently got into the long range hunting game (been hunting for 43 years) and will be using the 215's on my deer/elk hunt this year, but will also be taking along some barnes 200lrx's, I know Jeff is not a fan of them, they haven't failed me yet from 100-400yrds on large game. I also live in komnifornia which limits my bullet selection drastically in certain zones..........
I have NO doubt that the berger's will perform perfectly at any range I shoot with proper shot placement
stenger
Well-Known Member
It happened I promise that. Have witness to prove it.
I wish I still had the bullet it laid on the dash of my truck for a year.
I wish I still had the bullet it laid on the dash of my truck for a year.
cowboy
Well-Known Member
My hair is getting pretty grey and has started to thin out but I just took a poll of what is left and they all agree.
Have tried my best to stay out of this but I guess after all these years of using almost ever bullet manufactured and having both success and disappointing results, I'll just keep using what works for me at the appropriate distance, angle of shot, caliber and game intended. The nut behind the bolt is ultimately responsible for a good or bad shot from any bullet manufacturer.
All I can say is do your own testing, and pick an appropriate bullet for the worse conditions where you can't keep your finger off the trigger.
