Long Range thick skin bullets

[Broz]

and will be using the 215's on my deer/elk hunt this year, but will also be taking along some barnes 200lrx's, I know Jeff is not a fan of them, but they haven't failed me yet from 100-400yrds on large game.

Nothing wrong with that plan. I have said before the solids have their place. I just choose not to use them anymore.

Jeff

 

[trueblue]

When I find the time, I might have to read all 35 pages of this thread.
Until then,
I will keep shooting my Berger bullets with great satisfaction.
Just got back from Wyoming where I took a mule deer at 841 yards.
Thru the heart and far shoulder , went down in less than 20 yards.
Internals were mush.
Will post a thread on the hunt in the near future.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

Mark,
I have no doubt that stenger learned lessons, as did the hunter and his guide. And I have no doubt they will act on those lessons.

These guys aren't rookies. They witnessed three bullet strikes on the bull, field dressed the animal, recovered some bullets, AND they collectively deemed it bullet failure. Who was better positioned to make the call? Better yet, who's positioned to make the judgement call on their behalf. (Don't need lectured on Len's rights to remove/edit Threads/Posts) Will the creation of a 3-page definition of the word "fail" change their opinions/conclusions? Or striking the word fail from the Title? Their collective opinion is no longer represented within the title.

You seem to support that removal. Is that how you want the expression of experiences and opinion controlled? What about when it doesn't suite your preference? Are the pleasantries of holding hands around the campfire with solely the like-minded worth it?

I've read that the bull died numerous times, and numerous times its been inferred dead bull = successful bullet performance. Really? Why don't the OP, the hunter, and his guide deem that bullet success? Because the only success that the confirmed dead bull conveys is that he didn't die later, without recovery.

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what a "failure" is. I don't really care what the loader, hunter and guide think... according to the facts that they provided, penetration was not as hoped for but the bullets did in fact cause enough trauma to dispatch the bull. In my book that is not failure. Might not be glorious success, but it isn't failure.

And one more time... there is no perfect bullet for all situations. We all know that and this bullet was less than ideal for this set of circumstances. Some may have known that and some of us have learned that.

Is it possible for Bergers to fail? Most definitely, especially when used outside their parameters. But then again, I don't consider bad results outside a bullet's parameters to be an "honest" failure.

The 250 Bergers need to be shot at lower velocities and are better suited for lesser 338 cartridges.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what a "failure" is. I don't really care what the loader, hunter and guide think... according to the facts, penetration was not as hoped for but the bullets did in fact cause enough trauma to dispatch the bull. In my book that is not failure. Might not be glorious success, but it isn't failure.

Mark,
I think you'll find no evidence of me refusing to accept disagreement on this Forum. I believe you'll find no evidence of me forcing others over to my way of thinking. No evidence of me attempting to silence others expressing their positions and opinions.

Agreeing to disagree is the easy for me, providing the force feeding stops at that point. I do feel that stenger should be allowed to express the position of the hunter and guide. A position with which he concurs, having talked to his buddy who was there and shot the bull. Makes no difference to me whether you care about what they saw, think, concluded, and have stated. Does make a difference if your compelled to silence and correct and control them in the effort to prevent them from expressing both their experience and their conclusion. stenger has the same right to his conclusion as you, I, and believe it or not - Broz.

There are some that can't contain themselves on these matters. Dunno about you. It's the same old same old. This is the first Thread I've ever engaged the "Bergers Walk on Water" crowd in my time on this Forum. It won't end until Broz has completed his process of accusations and intimidation on everyone and anything he construes to be anti-Berger. Not until he's completed his process of silencing dissent. Nothing has been more predictable over the past 3 years.

Look's like Broz has presented me with an 'I like Paul post', so I will extend the courtesy of a response.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

Mark,
I think you'll find no evidence of me refusing to accept disagreement on this Forum. I believe you'll find no evidence of me forcing others over to my way of thinking. No evidence of me attempting to silence others expressing their positions and opinions.

Agreeing to disagree is the easy for me, providing the force feeding stops at that point. I do feel that stenger should be allowed to express the position of the hunter and guide. A position with which he concurs, having talked to his buddy who was there and shot the bull. Makes no difference to me whether you care about what they saw, think, concluded, and have stated. Does make a difference if your compelled to silence and correct and control them in the effort to prevent them from expressing both their experience and their conclusion. stenger has the same right to his conclusion as you, I, and believe it or not - Broz.

There are some that can't contain themselves on these matters. Dunno about you. It's the same old same old. This is the first Thread I've ever engaged the "Bergers Walk on Water" crowd in my time on this Forum. It won't end until Broz has completed his process of accusations and intimidation on everyone and anything he construes to be anti-Berger. Not until he's completed his process of silencing dissent. Nothing has been more predictable over the past 3 years.

Look's like Broz has presented me with an 'I like Paul post', so I will extend the courtesy of a response.

Paul,

I have no problem with the OP, Hunter and Guide voicing their opinion. I just don't really care what it is when presented with the facts as I can make up my own mind. That said, I think folks should be very careful about their verbage and tone.

There is for example a huge difference between this thread and the 788m Moose thread in verbage and tone and that thread is much more constructive and much less contentious. In both cases the bullet did not perform as expected. In both cases the moose was killed and recovered. The bullet failed to open. Why? Because it was used outside its parameter. Is that bullet failure? Not in my book. Is anyone on that thread pointing fingers at the hunter or the bullet? No. Instead they are analyzing it to understand what happened and come up with a better plan for the future.

There is a difference between a "failure" and a "problem". When the "problem" thread was started, no one was sure what the "problem" was. After a lot of internet analyzing one of our members actually put them to the test and found out that that particular bullet has a serious design flaw that precludes it from being used at higher velocities. So, IMO, the manufacturer either goes back to the drawing board or states the limitations of the current design.

I have read most ,if not all Jeff's threads and posts on the subject. He is very zealous about the bullets he uses and I don't blame him because quite frankly he has had outstanding success with them. Really hard to beat his track record with those bullets. He knows and understands how to use them. I can understand his frustration when others who don't know and how to use them misrepresent their capabilities.

I don't see Jeff force feeding or intimidating anyone. He has said numerous times there is no perfect bullet for every situation and you should use whatever works best for you. He has got on the case of some guys who he feels is misrepresenting the product but that's understandable in my view.

I know Jeff personally and consider him a friend and although I don't know you personally, I also consider you a friend so it pains me to see you guys at each other. I'm sure if you met Jeff you would like him. You are both great contributors to this site so I'm hoping we get past this real quick.

Last, I think I am one of the most objective persons on this site when it come to the subject of bullets. I don't care who makes it or how it's made. If it does the best job for me, I use it. That said, since Long Range is the goal, the field of interesting bullets gets narrowed down quickly. I.e., Barnes are a non player for me due to lack of BC. I will pay the higher price for CEB's as long as they perform in accuracy and terminally. Bergers are also way up on the list because they are accurate, have probably the highest BC's, are devastating on game when used properly and very reasonably priced. Just plain hard to beat that. But... they do have some limitations which I am very well aware of.

Let's move on.

 

[Pdvdh]

No tight shorts here Pauly. You are the only guy I know that has been complaining about a bullets performance for years and still uses them. As far as I remember it started with your disappointment on the wounded bear you killed at 10'.

But you kept using them.

Then I remember the disappointment in performance with your gut shot sheep.

But you kept using them.

Then you fiddled with the tips till they blew up on impact of I believe a caribou. Lot of pics there.

Are you still using them?

Find where I reported any failures of the bullets I used before I switched to Bergers.

Bet you can't. But you can find where I suggested other bullets for some applications.

I sit and read while you haters whine and poke insinuations about me till I was full of it.

I only post facts of what I do and see. Well supported facts, I will add. And I have killed more game with the Bergers than any of you jumping in here playing god.

Very little if anything you have posted in this thread has any real valuable content. You have acted like a little school girl since the beginning with your worthless posts about popcorn. I stayed out of it at first, but I got sick of it.

And while I am at it I call BS on the post from stenger about shooting a deer at 760 yards through the shoulder and it penciling in and out the shoulders. The deer runs off and he finds the unharmed bullet. If this is true he needs to buy a lottery ticket.

Anybody else got enough hair to agree??

Love
Jeff

Jeff,
I'd say you've outdone yourself. But that's only a partial truth. All you've done is repeat your same performance, fill the same BergerOZ role, and fulfill every expectation we had for you, based on your prior pro-Berger posts and numerous attack the anti-Berger messenger rheteric over your past several years on Berger Patrol.

The most unbelievable thing you've posted in this entire Thread?

I am not reading all this thread, I have heard most of it all before. But has the question been asked if these bullets were pointed or tip modified in any way?
Jeff

Get real. Berger bullet Threads are your obsession. Ever ask yourself why the compulsion to intimidate, silence, control, attack, interrogate, malign, accuse, and chastise every member that's ever stated anything you've interpreted as anti-Berger? It's all a re-run. Take-two. You'll generally start your 'defense of Berger' posts suspiciously yet civily, but when you find yourself unable to control the content and direction of the Threads to your satisfaction, accusing other members of lying has become your standard operating practice.

stenger doesn't see it the Broz way so he's now a liar. And me? I really don't see it the Broz way so I'm a little school girl. Gotta tell ya Jeff, your opinion might mean something if your big boy pants of weren't hanging lowly - down around your ankles.

Really begs the question. Why the obsession? You've gone beyond representing Berger in any respectable fashion. Is it all really just about you?

Pauly... Really? You in high school or what? Ask Rhian if he can spare a set of those big boy pants. You've clearly lost yours.

Above, you typed I only post facts of what I do and see. Not pulling any fast ones tonight. I see no facts in your post to me. All I see is the answer - played out in real life - to bigngreens pondering as to why all the Berger 'problem' Threads go to hell in a hand basket. Take a look see. Broz in his finest hour.

You no more than type it, and then walk straight into it...

Agreed, maybe some of the Haters or whiners...
Jeff

You complain about Haters and whiners, and then proceed to claim the grand prize on both counts with the content of your post to me. Might as well double up and call stenger a liar while I'm at it. Because I'm really really mad now, and I've lost my pants. Your best hope at this time Jeff, is for Len to close this thread down, before you self-inflict further damage. Self-denigration - believe me, it isn't pretty.

Anybody else got enough hair to agree??

Love
Jeff

I suppose this is your call to arms? All those drinking the Broz Kool-Aid, your leader has sounded his call. Grow up Jeff. Pull those pants up, shake off the dust, and ask yourself why the obsession?

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I can't believe people are still making a federal case out of the fact that a rather soft bullet didn't do that well when it found a moose shoulder at spitting distance. Makes me want so stay the heck away from the koolaid-- (oops Berger bullets) for sure. I'm having good performance with red and green boxes with a sprinkle of bullets from Bend Or. I think I'll stay there.

 

[C.O. Shooter]

Pirates won last night over the Cardinals, 5-3!

 

[Broz]

Well Paul that is simply your opinion and how you see it. That's fine you are entitled to that. But lets cut the crap. You and one or two others on here have taken offense to my posts about Berger Bullets in the past. You just admitted that. And for the record again, I have zero affiliating with the company. I have only done the extensive field reports to show what I see and how they work. Then I have offered "take a look and see if these results will work for you" I hardly see how this is pushing, or force feeding Bergers on anyone. What I do see is that from the beginning of this thread you, like a spoiled child, came here for one reason. To prod and bait me and maybe a few others into a debate. Now it is clear you are actually the little boy who got what he wanted in an attempt to make me look bad. Well maybe you were successful in some eyes. But by doing this you revealed who YOU really are. You want to come off like you are above me and I am always the bad guy. Well I beg to differ and so will some other members.
So the REAL problem is, you don't like me for my past posts. Maybe the fact that so many did like the reports is what bothers you? You think you are looking good when you admittedly came to this thread and baited me to respond? Want to talk about allies? Was 300winmag's post not a direct shot at me? So now I will bet the pm's are flying among the few of you like you just won your first "T" ball game. Or are you texting ? Be careful you not get a cramp in your little thumbs.
In the end I am glad you feel like you have done something good. But all you have done is to reveal you had an axe to grind with me and were just waiting for the opportunity to do it. To bad you had to use this guys thread to do that. And that is exactly what you did. Why not just send me a pm in the first place? Guess you were hoping for more back up in your plan to publically degrade me. Well buddy, I don't think it worked, at least not outside the eyes of the few of you that were in on it.

Maybe you were hoping your attack would run me off? Not yet. But you are welcome to keep trying since you have revealed your mission.

Meanwhile I want to apologize to everyone for my part in derailing this thread. Especially to Stenger. There was nothing personal in my posts. I simply felt you were lacking in support for the negative title of the thread. Then the deer report I viewed as a little far fetched and another attempt to bullet bash. I let the attack from others provoke me to include you in my response. I was wrong for that.

This will be my last post in this thread. If others want to keep the attack going that's fine. But I have more important things to do. Hunting season will be here very soon and I want to be on my game. So I will divert my time and attention to my new rifle.

Jeff

 

[extreme]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

Mark,
I think you'll find no evidence of me refusing to accept disagreement on this Forum. I believe you'll find no evidence of me forcing others over to my way of thinking. No evidence of me attempting to silence others expressing their positions and opinions.

Agreeing to disagree is the easy for me, providing the force feeding stops at that point. I do feel that stenger should be allowed to express the position of the hunter and guide. A position with which he concurs, having talked to his buddy who was there and shot the bull. Makes no difference to me whether you care about what they saw, think, concluded, and have stated. Does make a difference if your compelled to silence and correct and control them in the effort to prevent them from expressing both their experience and their conclusion. stenger has the same right to his conclusion as you, I, and believe it or not - Broz.

There are some that can't contain themselves on these matters. Dunno about you. It's the same old same old. This is the first Thread I've ever engaged the "Bergers Walk on Water" crowd in my time on this Forum. It won't end until Broz has completed his process of accusations and intimidation on everyone and anything he construes to be anti-Berger. Not until he's completed his process of silencing dissent. Nothing has been more predictable over the past 3 years.

Look's like Broz has presented me with an 'I like Paul post', so I will extend the courtesy of a response.

For me every single word in this post is correct..It is one thing to offer a different opinion ,but another to have the same rhetoric stuffed in your face constantly.
Every person on this site that says anything about Berger gets told that they are full of **** ..Broz is obsessed with ripping your post apart and his side kick
Montana rifleman will be the very next guy to kick in and try to cover his buddy,s
butt...For those of you that may not agree with this post ,,you only need to go back and read anything that starts with Berger and you see for yourself ,that Phorwath speaks the truth.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed Big Time

For me every single word in this post is correct..It is one thing to offer a different opinion ,but another to have the same rhetoric stuffed in your face constantly.
Every person on this site that says anything about Berger gets told that they are full of **** ..Broz is obsessed with ripping your post apart and his side kick
Montana rifleman will be the very next guy to kick in and try to cover his buddy,s
butt...For those of you that may not agree with this post ,,you only need to go back and read anything that starts with Berger and you see for yourself ,that Phorwath speaks the truth.

Get a life

 

[Pdvdh]

Meanwhile I want to apologize to everyone for my part in derailing this thread. Especially to Stenger. There was nothing personal in my posts.

Jeff

For the record Jeff, does your apology to 'everyone' extend to me?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets - Bergers Succeed

For me every single word in this post is correct..It is one thing to offer a different opinion ,but another to have the same rhetoric stuffed in your face constantly.
Every person on this site that says anything about Berger gets told that they are full of **** ..Broz is obsessed with ripping your post apart and his side kick
Montana rifleman will be the very next guy to kick in and try to cover his buddy,s
butt...For those of you that may not agree with this post ,,you only need to go back and read anything that starts with Berger and you see for yourself ,that Phorwath speaks the truth.

Just for the record, anyone who has read many of my post about bullets knows that...

1) I prefer controlled expansion bullets over all, but I also like the Berger style cup and cores with high BC and and good killing track records.

2) That I have made many favorable posts about CEB, GSC and even E-Tip monos

This hardly qualifies me as Broz's sidekick as he is not a fan of monos.

You are just out to lunch dude. Get a reality check.

One more thing... I have never to the best of my knowledge resorted to personal attacks. If you can find an example please do show it. If I think the BS flag is in order, I'll wave it, but I don't get personal.

 

[elkaholic]

I too am putting this thread to rest. I think pretty much everyhting has been said! I tend to try to be a peace maker, and try not to let my emotions run my mouth. SOMETIMES I'm even successful. I have always tried to post MY results whether they are popular or not. I have said good and bad things about Nosler, Berger, my own, and others and will continue to try to make helpful, constructive posts.
Here is my suggestion to whomever it may concern: I think what turns people off is when you post something, good or bad, based on YOUR experience and someone comes back with an off the wall cheap shot because it isn't what they believe,and it turns into this kind of stuff! I think if we just let our experience talk, and let everyone else decide what THEY belive, we will all be better off. Enough said! Best of luck to all of you this season! I'm going hunting.......Rich