Long Range thick skin bullets

[Beng]

Failure always implies working outside the design parameters, the Bergers worked within their specs, thus no failure and the correctly altered thread title.
One might say the design itself is a failure, depending on oppinion. That isn't the same as "the bullet failed" though. I wouldn't consider phrasing it the latter way objective criticism in this specific case anyway, but thats just my oppinion.

There were voices blaming Berger, atleast for not providing info. Imho their general description of the hunting line of bullets provides enough information though.
I'm not necessarily adressing Stenger, he wasn't shooting ad hominems.

 

[rick523]

Had a moose hunt go bad when shot at less than 100 yards with a berger 250 at 2900 fps. A friend of mine just shot a moose three times and the bullets did not perform. They expanded to rapidly thus not making it to the goodies. Well since I load his ammo does anyone know of a good long range bullets that will perform up to buffalo size game. We are from the east not to educated on the really big game bullets.

Thanks

I have read this entire thread, and have not seen one person elude to the op's last sentence. Maybe had he done a little more research this thread would not have been posted. Instead because of an uneducated bullet selection he choose to blame the bullet, instead of his lack of research. JMO

 

[cohunter14]

I have read this entire thread, and have not seen one person elude to the op's last sentence. Maybe had he done a little more research this thread would not have been posted. Instead because of an uneducated bullet selection he choose to blame the bullet, instead of his lack of research. JMO

Hahahaha, actually that is really funny to read the original post. No where does he BLAME Berger for anything, he is actually trying to do his research and ask for help. Maybe the thread title wasn't great, but essentially all he was saying is 'this bullet didn't work for me, any suggestions on one that will?' Amazing that we have got 37+ pages out of that initial post, lol.

 

[extreme]

I have read this entire thread, and have not seen one person elude to the op's last sentence. Maybe had he done a little more research this thread would not have been posted. Instead because of an uneducated bullet selection he choose to blame the bullet, instead of his lack of research. JMO

Maybe he was mislead by others on the site that push Berger bullets as hard as they do. He most likely made his decision on what they preached instead of what the bullet manuf. said. Lot of good info on this site but it back fired this time and in this case it was a good thing.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13" to 15" long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don't go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill.

From the Berger Site on hunting bullets. They are advertising 13"to 15" of penetration. IMO, this amount of penetration may lead to one surviving lung one a moose sized animal. That said, I have read reports where the wound channels through bull elk are longer than that at longer ranges.

A rear quartering shot on a moose would have to hit right behind the last rib on a moose to have hope of good penetration into the lungs. Not much room for error IMO.

Lesson learned for me is I would not use a Berger on moose size game because if you don't get the ideal shot with the ideal expansion velocity range you run a high risk of poor performance.

Maybe with a 300 gr 338 bullet, you get better penetration?

I think Berger should be a little more specific on expected performance by caliber, weight and velocity range.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Wow, you're still firing away at stenger??? The guy that related a story of a Berger bullet performance on a bull moose with a rating of fail? Somewhat less than a perfect 10?

Thanks for the helpful assistance Kirby. You've done yourself proud, and I'm sure stenger considers you a real pal.

If he is unhappy with the performance why does he keep using them? That is my question. With the number of bullets out there to choose from, why stick with one he obviously feels fails to perform to the standards he wants the bullet to perform to.

I have not attacked him in any way, just saying, if you do not like the performance of a certain bullet from what you have seen in the field, stop using them, problem solved I would think.

I will full admit that I have heard several stories about the berger 300 OTM penciling through big game at ranged out past 700 yards with fired in 338 Edge, 338 Lapua class rifles. Now it was said that this bullet was the Hunting bullet. That would be something to confirm for sure but after Berger had its accuracy problems with the original 338, 300 gr hybrids, they beefed up the bullet so that they would offer consistant accuracy first. This also limited some expansion issues at longer ranges with the smaller 338 magnums.

What we are hearing from him is a bit odd. THey choose a 250 gr bullet which blows up on impact, they he is told by many, MANY people that he should have used the 300 gr version and then out of the blue after I do not know how many pages of posts on the subject, he tells a story about someone that used a 300 gr Hunting berger on a broadside whitetail that FAILED.

Sorry, that's just a bit to much to swallow. It APPEARS that he was being told by many that he used the wrong bullet and then a story of the recommended bullet pops up to make claims it does not work either.

What is his point here. Berger bullets are no good for close range moose, nor are they good for long range whitetails. We all know that is simply not true in the later instance unless the OTM bullets were used and then his results that were witnessed would be predictable.

It is also curious why you are so heated at defending him. I personally have not attacked him in any way. I have said that he has made bad bullet choices which is not opinion, simple fact and that has been echoed by many others here as well. That is not an attack, that's trying to tell someone they made a poor bullet choice so next time they can make a good bullet choice.

The fact that this is still going on with the same exact comments from both sides is what temped me to make a post.

Again, from his own experience and words, Berger 338 bullets failed on moose in his opinion, they also failed on whitetail at LR in his opinion, Don't use them anymore, problem solved and we could put an end to this mess. If you do not like berger bullets don't use them, if you like them and have gotten great results, use them, again, we are not solving any problem here.

Not trying to make a friend with anyone here so not sure what your comments are referring to. There are about a dozen posters on this thread, including you, that are doing nothing but throwing the same things back and forth over and over. That is certainly helpful and you are also done yourself proud in doing nothing but stoking the flames at every turn with the same comments and I do not really understand what dog you have in the fight.

THERE IS NO FIGHT, if you do not like the performance your seeing with berger bullets, WHY WOULD YOU KEEP USING THEM? that was my only point, it makes no sense. You believe a 300 gr bullet failed on LR whitetail but then you recommend using a 250 gr bullet on moose........ I do not see the logic here at all.

Stop using berger bullets, there are an endless number of options out there to use, move on and be happy.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I have read this entire thread, and have not seen one person elude to the op's last sentence. Maybe had he done a little more research this thread would not have been posted. Instead because of an uneducated bullet selection he choose to blame the bullet, instead of his lack of research. JMO

I think it was mentioned many times that this was a poor bullet choice for close range hunting on this size of an animal but he did fully admit that he had not researched the game they would be hunting. If he had only posted for recommendations before they chose the 250 gr berger, I think this monster of a thread would have never been.....

 

[Beng]

Now that I'm home from uni, I see some room for elaboration.
I did write the post on the fly between 2 lectures and didn't pay as much attention as necessary, sorry.

I'm not and wasn't addressing Stenger, he wasn't shooting ad hominems in this discussion.

Failure always implies that the device does not do it's intended work inside the design parameters, the Bergers worked within their specs though, thus they didn't fail and the alteration of the thread's title was correct.
One might say the design itself is a failure, depending on opinion or that the bullet failed to satisfy the user's expectations. That isn't the same as "the bullet failed" i.e. didn't perform the way it was designed to perform though and especially someones expectations are a construct of his making and not the product's manufacturer.
There were voices blaming Berger, at least for not providing info. Imho their general description of the hunting line of bullets, provides enough information about the bullet's behavior. One should always consider, that expansion and fragmentation are functions of resistance and distance and resistance is a function of density.
Btw. to avoid misunderstandings: A bullet is never designed to kill. It is designed to deform or fragment in a specific way, leaving a specific pattern of disrupted media behind. The form of this pattern is subject to the media's resistance.
Death is just a byproduct of the tissue disruption, depending on shot placement.

 

[stenger]

Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Last words on this subject! Shoot at your own risk when using Bergers on large or dangerous game. I don't want to see anyone get hurt.

Peace
Good luck this season.

 

[RTK]

I think a lot of people are looking for the highest BC bullet to all exclusion when shooting game at long or short distances and becoming blinded to what is needed..

Accuracy/shot placement has always been at the top of my list but bullet selection has to be right up there too.
I don't mind dialing in a couple more moa at distance with a better constructed bullet for my needs as long as it shoots as well but has a lower BC.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Stenger

Youve done nothing wrong. This is what we do as hunters. We try bullets under different variables, and eventually decide on one we like.

This is one of my favorite parts of reloading for hunting. We have all seen things/performance we didnt like. Analyze them and decide what to do next.

Terminal ballistics can be very finicky. Its not uncommon to receive inconsistent results with any bullets. I hope this thread does not persuade you to stop using berger bullets because they really are good bullets. Its just a matter of figuring out the strong and weak points and using them to your advantage. I assure you will end up doing the same regardless of what bullets you do settle on.

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.

Bingo!

 

[Pdvdh]

It is also curious why you are so heated at defending him.

Not trying to make a friend with anyone here so not sure what your comments are referring to. There are about a dozen posters on this thread, including you, that are doing nothing but throwing the same things back and forth over and over. That is certainly helpful and you are also done yourself proud in doing nothing but stoking the flames at every turn with the same comments and I do not really understand what dog you have in the fight.

THERE IS NO FIGHT,

My interest in this Thread should be clear to anyone that's read my posts in the context of those member's posts and statements I've responded to. If it's not clear from my posts, it should be clear from other member's posts that have joined in the defense of stenger's right to express his experience and opinion on the performance of a hunting bullet. I have to presume you don't understand, otherwise there shouldn't be any purpose for questioning why "I'm so heated at defending him". My first response to your characterization me being heated at defending him, would be to inform you that I'm defending his right to share an experience about a bullet's performance with the membership, and his opinion about that performance. If your claim is that I'm defending him in any other sense, then you'll have to describe your claim with some further clarity.

You expressed curiosity of my involvement, and also now criticized my prolonged involvement in this Thread. In the effort to satisfy your curiosity, I respond to you now. There's a prolonged established history of transforming any member's post describing and sharing a poor experience with a Berger bullet into a negative critique of that member, rather than a neutral discussion of the bullet performance experienced. The consequence of shifting the focus of the discussion from the bullet performance experience to interrogation and criticism of the member that posted the information leads to either naturally defensive responses from the member, or more commonly the stifling and silencing of that member. And it's as simple as that.

I've countered those members that elected to shift the discussion from bullet performance, to a negative critique of the stenger. I had no doubts about the direction this thread would turn beginning with my first popcorn post. Broz likes the popcorn when he controlling the direction and content of the Threads. Doesn't care for its taste when he's not.

If you're finding me responding to your Posts on this Thread, now you should be able to understand why. This is the first Thread that I've observed you become part of this established and predictable response pattern of focusing negativity and criticism onto the member (stenger), rather than responding to the bullet performance he came here to discuss and share with us.

So I self-analyzed my purpose for involvement in this Thread at the time I chose to participate in it. Have you done likewise?

In your abbreviated quote (above), you state you really don't understand what dog I have in this fight. If you don't understand my interest in this Thread now, you may never be capable of understanding it. But to express my curiosity, you first characterize this Thread as a fight, and then immediately emphatically re-characterize it with "THERE IS NO FIGHT". What's up with that?

Even though you apparently believe you've been a neutral, helpful participant in responding to stenger and this Thread he initiated, perhaps you'll be able to recognize the effect of your Posts on stenger; how they've been interpreted and their affect, by taking a look-see at stenger's direct response to you:

Fifty Driver
I think you should stick to building rifles instead of acusing me of making up a story.

Peace
Good luck this season.

So no matter how intently you've concluded that your Posts in this Thread have been void of personal attack and accusation, the member you've directed your comments to has just clearly communicated to you, his own interpretation of them.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Finally its never a bad idea to contact the manufacturer whenever you dont understand a problem youve encountered with their product. They typically understand their product better than anyone else and berger has excellent customer service. Many a times walt himself will return your email. That is one man that is full of usefull information.

However.... in this case the bullet was not a "hunting" bullet although we all know it has a thicker jacket than the hunting bullet, it puts Berger in an awkward position of explaining the terminal ballistics of a non-hunting bullet which they do not recommend for hunting. Not sure how that dialogue would go?

My guess is that Berger would suggest to the OP the same thing most of the rest of us have suggested which is to use the 300 gr "hunting" bullet in the 338 LM, although some guys prefer the OTM.