I am very dissapointed with Berger bullets regarding the 338 hybrid bullet.

[elkaholic]

Elkaholic,

When plastic tips became popular we spent a lot of time trying to get them to work. We were unsuccessful in making the axis of the bullet line up consistently with the axis of the tip. This produces precision issues.

It has been our position that precision is our top priority so we (Walt at the time) decided not to use plastic tips in any of our bullets. We recognize that plastic tips have benefits but until we can make them shoot precisely we won't use them.

Canyonman1,

For clarification purposes, many of our bullets do not perform well at the highest possible velocities. When the first VLD was created (6mm 105 gr) many who understood high BCs tried to use this bullet at the highest velocities achievable with big wildcats for obvious reasons (minimal drop and drift).

In many of these situations the bullets blew up in flight. At best precision and accuracy was poor so folks learned that they had to dial the velocity back to use these bullets. In this particular example the velocities that worked were in the 3,200 fps and less region which most found acceptable.

With this 338 cal bullet we made the jacket thicker to begin with because we wanted to prevent the bullet failures as described above. We knew many folks wanted to drive this bullet hard so we implemented a solution that worked in the past. In this case we are facing a new issue which we believe is nose slump.

These 338 cal bullets have been reported as working very well at velocities that most would consider moderate. For this reason it is likely that the bullet that exists today will remain a part of our line. The revised version will be made as a separate option for those who want to push this bullet hard.

I suspect that this revised version will compromise on some of the other characteristics our bullets possess but to guess which characteristic and to what degree would be pure speculation so not worth discussing now. I can say that we will not compromise on precision and will work to produce a bullet that can take hard shooting and react properly with impact on live tissue.

Fiftydriver,

Your point about waiting two years is valid. It is this long wait that played a role in my decision to release this bullet with minimal testing. I do not intend for this to be an excuse but rather an explanation. There are no excuses regarding this situation and I accept that this was an error.

I am a shooter too. I know what it feels like to yearn for the latest hottest thing and not be able to get it. We received far more calls and emails asking about the 338 cal bullets than any other bullet in our history. I was as eager for these to get "out there" as everyone was to shoot them. I took a chance that everything was going to be fine. We make all our bullets the same way and this is no different with the 338 cal.

Most of the two year wait was the result of our need to build a new machine that had a long enough stroke to make bullets up to and including 50 cal. Once the machine was completed it was not long before we had bullets made since our process is always the same.

We had designed a bullet failure solution into this bullet so I had no reason to believe there would be any problems. Obviously I was wrong. If I had a chance to do it over again I would have done it differently. Wanting a bullet to work for those who are eager to shoot it is not the same as making sure the bullet will work and I understand that better now than I did a few weeks ago. I promise you and anyone who wants to push this bullet hard that we will have a solution.

Regards,
Eric

Thank you much for your openness, honesty, and frankly, patience to answer our questions! I'm still not sure why a ballistic tip couldn't (shouldn't) be an option. Technology has advanced since Walt made the decision not to use ballistic tips and, in fact, the Hornady A-Max shoots VERY well. I use a brass ballistic tip in my bullets and they seem to shoot quite well also. There is no doubt a benefit to a ballistic tip in long range hunting applications and IMHO, accuracy does not suffer with the current methods used to insert the tips. Maybe a new look at ballistic tips is warranted given the popularity of long range hunting these days. Not trying to tell you how to run a business that is obviously VERY successful (just a suggestion)...Thanks again/Rich

 

[Eric Stecker]

Rich,

I certainly won't say that we will never revisit the tips as I know they have advantages. Currently our manufacturing process is still very similar to how we made bullets back then so I suspect the results using our process would be similar.

Something else to consider is what each of us is using as a measure of precision. For the long range hunter 1/2 MOA is more than capable. If you combine this level of precision with a superior ballistic performance from a tipped bullet you've got a good combination.

Right or wrong we make our bullets to be capable of achieving 1/4 MOA or less. This is something Walt started long before I was catching crickets so it is the measure we stick to. I'll admit that staying with this position may prove to be unneccesary for certain applications but it is tough to change course on this subject.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Gnome!]

In any World Class Company the approval for product release does not rest with technicians, engineers or the like but, further up the chain. So I've been wondering whether or not someone at Berger who owned the decision would step up to the plate if for no other reason other than to stop any errosion of Bryan's credibility. Eric has stepped up to the plate and that tell's me alot about the man...Eric-Job Well Done.

Since Eric's post no one has mentioned this so I will. It's says alot about a man (Bryan) when due to no fault of his he stands at the front gates of his company and takes the hits one after the other and never sought to distance himself from the problem and how it wasn't his fault...not even a hint. In fact, if you read Bryan's post you'd think he made the decision. Bryan-Outstanding Loyalty.

With a world that all to often seems short on integrity, it is truly refreshing to witness two men who have it.

For many years I told my Managers it's ok to make mistakes just not the same ones over and over again, so if your not banging into the guardrail every once in a while then your not trying hard enough. Whether it's NASCAR or football unless your making a few mistakes or banging into the guardrail then your probably not trying hard enough and not going to be a World Class athelete or produce a World Class Product and so on.

I don't care that Berger made a mistake. What I do care about is how they address the public and the problem. From what I see I think they are on the right track.

+ 1

I will also add Outstanding Loyalty to Eric and Bryan for continuing to be here and answering the questions being raised.

Thank you to all working at Berger for striving to design, produce quality products and stand up to answer for all criticism good or bad.

 

[royinidaho]

My 2 cents on tipped bullets.

Current offerings of plastic tips are great for the average shooter but are not up to snuff for LRH. They are too blunt!

Copper/Brass or some other appropriate material with a FINE meplat (sharp point) when seated properly and of an appropriate design are the only way to go. I think tips are more sizzle and not the steak.

Adding a tip adds another component and step(s) in the process which is/are another opportunity for problems.

I doubt a tip on a Berger would improve anything about the bullet.

Just my NSHO.

 

[elkaholic]

My 2 cents on tipped bullets.

Current offerings of plastic tips are great for the average shooter but are not up to snuff for LRH. They are too blunt!

Copper/Brass or some other appropriate material with a FINE meplat (sharp point) when seated properly and of an appropriate design are the only way to go. I think tips are more sizzle and not the steak.

Adding a tip adds another component and step(s) in the process which is/are another opportunity for problems.

I doubt a tip on a Berger would improve anything about the bullet.

Just my NSHO.

Hi Roy. I agree with everything you said except that I do think a metal tip WOULD improve a Berger. It would increase B.C. and give more controlled expansion, especially at lower velocities

 

[bigngreen]

Hi Roy. I agree with everything you said except that I do think a metal tip WOULD improve a Berger. It would increase B.C. and give more controlled expansion, especially at lower velocities

Hope again!! I was bumming about what Roy said about not tipping Bergers. I will be a lab rat on testing some of those in a .277 cal Man, what a guy has to do to get some high BC bullets for a 270!!!

 

[theodore]

Berger was designed to be a target bullet, not hunting. Best of the West made the VLD a popular hunting bullet just in the last few years. Most of us folks on this forum are hunters. And some of us been using them for a real long time.

I think the company Berger Bullets has been doing a great job and hope they continue to maintain or increase its quality. It is so awesome that we get direct communication with berger on these forums.

These VLD are one of a kind due to its superior penetration upon entrance, delayed expansion, violent expansion, hold groups very well and has excellent bc. It is a bummer that the 338 has a bad start but just thinking about its potential makes some our finger tickle.

 

[jmden]

Litz has this to say about plastic tipped bullets in Applied Ballistics..., "First, it's possible to make the plastic tip a little pointier than a copper meplat. The effective diameter of most plastic tipped bullets is around .040", which isn't a lot smaller than a well formed meplat on conventional open tip bullets. The drag reduction of plastic tip bullet is real, but amounts to less than is commonly thought. An average plastic tipped bullet will have about as much drag as a meplat that's been properly pointed to a .040" diameter." He goes on to mention what's already been said here about adding another step and component to bullet making..."In a process where consistency is paramount, fewer steps are always better."

Litz also brings out the fact that as bullet caliber increases, effective meplat diameter remaining the same, the meplat becomes a much smaller portion of the frontal area of the bullet and thereby has less and less effect on overall bc.

I'm looking at a .338 265g AL RBBT Wildcat Kirby sent me some time ago and that aluminum tip is painfully sharp--a very small meplat. As Rich mentions, I think you'd have to go to a metal tip of some kind, especially with the larger calibers, to see any potentially worthwhile increase in BC over a plastic tip or perhaps even a conventional open tip bullets such as what Berger makes or Sierra makes with the SMKs. Another hunting advantage would be the expansion aid of the tip.

 

[Airgunner7]

It is too bad about the flaws of this new bullet but, I'm soo glad to see a company try to give us something new/better. I am waiting to build a rifle around this round as well.

Thanks for building great bullets Berger.

+1 on making several different variations.

 

[elkaholic]

Litz has this to say about plastic tipped bullets in Applied Ballistics..., "First, it's possible to make the plastic tip a little pointier than a copper meplat. The effective diameter of most plastic tipped bullets is around .040", which isn't a lot smaller than a well formed meplat on conventional open tip bullets. The drag reduction of plastic tip bullet is real, but amounts to less than is commonly thought. An average plastic tipped bullet will have about as much drag as a meplat that's been properly pointed to a .040" diameter." He goes on to mention what's already been said here about adding another step and component to bullet making..."In a process where consistency is paramount, fewer steps are always better."

Litz also brings out the fact that as bullet caliber increases, effective meplat diameter remaining the same, the meplat becomes a much smaller portion of the frontal area of the bullet and thereby has less and less effect on overall bc.

I'm looking at a .338 265g AL RBBT Wildcat Kirby sent me some time ago and that aluminum tip is painfully sharp--a very small meplat. As Rich mentions, I think you'd have to go to a metal tip of some kind, especially with the larger calibers, to see any potentially worthwhile increase in BC over a plastic tip or perhaps even a conventional open tip bullets such as what Berger makes or Sierra makes with the SMKs. Another hunting advantage would be the expansion aid of the tip.

My bullets have a .175" meplat with a 12 gr. brass insert that comes to a needle point. I have tested these against other manufacturers as well as against my own bullets with conventional tips and there is a significant difference in b.c. increase. There is also a noticeable increase in expansion capability at LOWER velocities (long range). I would agree that at higher velocities, all else being equal, the Berger has an advantage because of the very small meplat which delays expansion. I would also agree that adding components has the POTENTIAL to degrade accuracy, but doesn't necessarily. Case in point, the A-Max which I think most would agree is every bit as accurate as the Bergers. I'm in business and the driving force is to appeal to the largest market with a good product and produce it at a competitive price. Berger has done this very well and it is difficult to fault them for not making "the best product for every use". In order to stay in business, these things have to be taken into account. Having said that, I think this is why there is finally a move toward the "long range HUNTING" public because of the increased interest. I have to hand it to the folks at Berger for listening to the likes of us, but on the other hand, what some of us are suggesting would be a major shift (retooling) ($$$$) and this has to be a major consideration on their part. I think Eric eluded to that in one of his responses earlier in this thread. I can produce these bullets because it is a hobby that I enjoy and the cost is not a big issue compared to what I spend on the rest of the equipment. To me, shooting my own bullets in a cartridge of my own design is half the fun of hunting. The best thing we can do is to promote our sport to where it is worthwhile for bullet companies, like Berger, to produce what we want. I think we are getting there..Rich

 

[theodore]

My bullets have a .175" meplat with a 12 gr. brass insert that comes to a needle point. I have tested these against other manufacturers as well as against my own bullets with conventional tips and there is a significant difference in b.c. increase. There is also a noticeable increase in expansion capability at LOWER velocities (long range). I would agree that at higher velocities, all else being equal, the Berger has an advantage because of the very small meplat which delays expansion. I would also agree that adding components has the POTENTIAL to degrade accuracy, but doesn't necessarily. Case in point, the A-Max which I think most would agree is every bit as accurate as the Bergers. I'm in business and the driving force is to appeal to the largest market with a good product and produce it at a competitive price. Berger has done this very well and it is difficult to fault them for not making "the best product for every use". In order to stay in business, these things have to be taken into account. Having said that, I think this is why there is finally a move toward the "long range HUNTING" public because of the increased interest. I have to hand it to the folks at Berger for listening to the likes of us, but on the other hand, what some of us are suggesting would be a major shift (retooling) ($$$$) and this has to be a major consideration on their part. I think Eric eluded to that in one of his responses earlier in this thread. I can produce these bullets because it is a hobby that I enjoy and the cost is not a big issue compared to what I spend on the rest of the equipment. To me, shooting my own bullets in a cartridge of my own design is half the fun of hunting. The best thing we can do is to promote our sport to where it is worthwhile for bullet companies, like Berger, to produce what we want. I think we are getting there..Rich

Delayed expansion is a huge deal to many of us and like it a lot. Them plastic tips got a reputation for exploding upon impact if going too fast. I think a lot of shooters would be dissappointed again if a new 300 grainer plastic tip don't perform well at high impact velocity on game.

Hornady are the ones that got the good plastic tip bullets and competes with VLD ballistically. Wish hornady were making/designing a 300 grainer A-max while bergers continue to make there famous VLD with the newborn 300 grainers (still developing). Buts thats just my thoughts...for less major shift...gun)

 

[B23]

I was told by Dave Tooley Hornady was developing a heavy .338 but it was around 285gr. not 300.

 

[Topshot]

B23,

You are not wrong.........They now have it on their web site at Hornady.
See.....Pending R&D... Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 338 LAPUA - 338 LAPUA 285 gr. BTHP

Here is a picture of it...................Secant or tanget Ogive? looks a bit of both?

Hornady solved the problem of nose slump by not putting much lead in the nose. Maybe???

 

[royinidaho]

Pending R&D? I bet that phrase took on new meaning of late

Note the tapered jacket.

Whatever the material and design of their 140gr lead tipped BTSP offering in 277, it's one tough sucker. I've heard bad things about the SST @ high velocities.

And why not put 11 more grains of lead in it? 296 grains would be intriguing.