I am very dissapointed with Berger bullets regarding the 338 hybrid bullet.
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canyonman1
Well-Known Member
Just a small piece of info as far as customer service is concerned.
All bullets have a velocity window of effectiveness and reliability. Push one to fast and the effects may vary. But make a phone call to the folks at Sierra,Nosler,Hornady, Etc. and tell them you blew their bullet up pushing it and they will say "sorry" but you are pushing them to fast. Slow them down and they will do what you want.
I know because I've made those calls to each and every one.
Berger is the first to accept criticism of their product and actually make the customer happy by changeing their design to please everyone.
I personally don't have a problem with Generation 1 Hybrid. I wish they would keep it the same or offer the New one under a different # as an option. I believe toughening this bullet up so it won't have structural problems at high velocity, will make it have a higher upset velocity lowering long range expansion reliability.
As far as the reported B.C. being lower than advertised, I like as much as I can get, so I'm also a LITTLE dissapointed. But i've shot over 200 rounds past 1 mile in the last 2 weeks and this is the most consistant bullet i've ever fired in any rifle at long range. Yes I'm only driving them @ 2,750, not 3,300 fps. But if you stay in the velocity window, this bullet will perform!
To Eric and Bryan and all at Berger, Keep up what you do, I'm lovin' it!
All bullets have a velocity window of effectiveness and reliability. Push one to fast and the effects may vary. But make a phone call to the folks at Sierra,Nosler,Hornady, Etc. and tell them you blew their bullet up pushing it and they will say "sorry" but you are pushing them to fast. Slow them down and they will do what you want.
I know because I've made those calls to each and every one.
Berger is the first to accept criticism of their product and actually make the customer happy by changeing their design to please everyone.
I personally don't have a problem with Generation 1 Hybrid. I wish they would keep it the same or offer the New one under a different # as an option. I believe toughening this bullet up so it won't have structural problems at high velocity, will make it have a higher upset velocity lowering long range expansion reliability.
As far as the reported B.C. being lower than advertised, I like as much as I can get, so I'm also a LITTLE dissapointed. But i've shot over 200 rounds past 1 mile in the last 2 weeks and this is the most consistant bullet i've ever fired in any rifle at long range. Yes I'm only driving them @ 2,750, not 3,300 fps. But if you stay in the velocity window, this bullet will perform!
To Eric and Bryan and all at Berger, Keep up what you do, I'm lovin' it!
Great post by Eric Strecker.
Truly a stand up guy. As I have stated previously, I have full confidence that Berger will work this issue out, just give them some time.
I shoot Berger's is all my rifles except the 338's. Once more is known about the performance of their 338 bullets, I am sure I will be a covert to them as well.
Truly a stand up guy. As I have stated previously, I have full confidence that Berger will work this issue out, just give them some time.
I shoot Berger's is all my rifles except the 338's. Once more is known about the performance of their 338 bullets, I am sure I will be a covert to them as well.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Marine Sniper,
Fair enough. I agree the reputation of berger bullets is very good but all of them have velocity ceilings. I was hoping the new 338 Bergers would offer the same 3200-3250 fps velocity ceiling as other heavy for caliber VLDs made by Berger. In the back of my mind however I kept thinking that the larger the diameter, the heavier the bullet, the harder it is to simply keep the bullet together simply from a physics standpoint as the bullet has more mass and that does not help when its spun at high velocity.
I also agree, with the wait we have been put through, its hard to swallow that this testing of this bullet has not been done and done again and again and repeated and repeated and retested and proven and proven again by Berger, but test shooters and again by Berger, I think you get my point.
After 2 years, there really is no excuse to release a product that has not been fully tested and proven.
That said, when a product hits the public, it gets tested in many applications that are the manufacture may have not been able to test but again, some pretty solid claims were made in rifle systems that we commonly use for long range shooting and the results fell short so far.
All in all, I agree with your feelings about being disappointed with the results but would still say that your rifle will likely perform EXTEMELY WELL with the 300 gr SMK until Berger gets these bullets fine tuned for those of us that drive at higher velocity.
Take care and keep us posted with your big Yogi project.
Fair enough. I agree the reputation of berger bullets is very good but all of them have velocity ceilings. I was hoping the new 338 Bergers would offer the same 3200-3250 fps velocity ceiling as other heavy for caliber VLDs made by Berger. In the back of my mind however I kept thinking that the larger the diameter, the heavier the bullet, the harder it is to simply keep the bullet together simply from a physics standpoint as the bullet has more mass and that does not help when its spun at high velocity.
I also agree, with the wait we have been put through, its hard to swallow that this testing of this bullet has not been done and done again and again and repeated and repeated and retested and proven and proven again by Berger, but test shooters and again by Berger, I think you get my point.
After 2 years, there really is no excuse to release a product that has not been fully tested and proven.
That said, when a product hits the public, it gets tested in many applications that are the manufacture may have not been able to test but again, some pretty solid claims were made in rifle systems that we commonly use for long range shooting and the results fell short so far.
All in all, I agree with your feelings about being disappointed with the results but would still say that your rifle will likely perform EXTEMELY WELL with the 300 gr SMK until Berger gets these bullets fine tuned for those of us that drive at higher velocity.
Take care and keep us posted with your big Yogi project.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Eric,
Good post and very stand up.
I do have a question though, you state that these problems are caused by high presssure. I find that hard to believe as I shoot them in my 338 AX and 338 AM and played with pressures extensively and in a 1-10 twist barrel, it seemed that velocity and RPM had much more effect on the bullet performance then any issues with pressure. Let me explain.
In the 338 AX, in a fresh 1-10 Lilja barrel, I was able to get pretty good performance, right around 1/2 moa up to 2900 fps. 3/4 moa up to just shy of 2950 fps and above that it all went to hell.
In a seasoned barrel of the same chambering and twist, 1/2 moa accuracy stopped at around 2775 fps. 3/4 moa to around 2830 fps and then above that very poor accuracy.
More so to the topic of pressure, when testing in my 338 AM, top loads using H-50BMG produced 3412 fps average but not a single bullet made it to target. I continued dropping powder charge to the point that I started to get hangfires and muzzle velocity was around 3000 to 3100 fps. I say around because the velocity spreads were terrible and so was accuracy, in fact, 40 to 50% of bullets did not make it to target. Pressures at this level I am sure were hardly over 50,000 psi if that.
In testing many of your other bullets, including the 224 80 gr VLD, 6mm 105 gr VLD, 6.5mm 140 gr VLD and 7mm 180 gr VLD, all of these let loose right at 3250 fps + or - a bit no matter what pressure they were driven to. Now I know many chamberings will not reach this level of performance but there are many out there that will get to this level and some that push well past this. I just wish you would make bullets that would survive the big chamberings as you have some great bullets that would be great for long range hunting but there are many chamberings that just outperform where your bullets will hold up to as far as velocity limits or more importantly, RPM limits.
Again, not hammering you, just asking the question, why do you believe this is a pressure issue?
Take care and thanks for your response.
Good post and very stand up.
I do have a question though, you state that these problems are caused by high presssure. I find that hard to believe as I shoot them in my 338 AX and 338 AM and played with pressures extensively and in a 1-10 twist barrel, it seemed that velocity and RPM had much more effect on the bullet performance then any issues with pressure. Let me explain.
In the 338 AX, in a fresh 1-10 Lilja barrel, I was able to get pretty good performance, right around 1/2 moa up to 2900 fps. 3/4 moa up to just shy of 2950 fps and above that it all went to hell.
In a seasoned barrel of the same chambering and twist, 1/2 moa accuracy stopped at around 2775 fps. 3/4 moa to around 2830 fps and then above that very poor accuracy.
More so to the topic of pressure, when testing in my 338 AM, top loads using H-50BMG produced 3412 fps average but not a single bullet made it to target. I continued dropping powder charge to the point that I started to get hangfires and muzzle velocity was around 3000 to 3100 fps. I say around because the velocity spreads were terrible and so was accuracy, in fact, 40 to 50% of bullets did not make it to target. Pressures at this level I am sure were hardly over 50,000 psi if that.
In testing many of your other bullets, including the 224 80 gr VLD, 6mm 105 gr VLD, 6.5mm 140 gr VLD and 7mm 180 gr VLD, all of these let loose right at 3250 fps + or - a bit no matter what pressure they were driven to. Now I know many chamberings will not reach this level of performance but there are many out there that will get to this level and some that push well past this. I just wish you would make bullets that would survive the big chamberings as you have some great bullets that would be great for long range hunting but there are many chamberings that just outperform where your bullets will hold up to as far as velocity limits or more importantly, RPM limits.
Again, not hammering you, just asking the question, why do you believe this is a pressure issue?
Take care and thanks for your response.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
I'm only a backyard bullet maker but in my opinion the problem is occuring because of the larger frontal area on the .338. I'm assuming the jacket thickness is similar to some of the smaller calibers which perform well at higher velocities.......Rich
Eric Stecker
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Elkaholic,
When plastic tips became popular we spent a lot of time trying to get them to work. We were unsuccessful in making the axis of the bullet line up consistently with the axis of the tip. This produces precision issues.
It has been our position that precision is our top priority so we (Walt at the time) decided not to use plastic tips in any of our bullets. We recognize that plastic tips have benefits but until we can make them shoot precisely we won't use them.
Canyonman1,
For clarification purposes, many of our bullets do not perform well at the highest possible velocities. When the first VLD was created (6mm 105 gr) many who understood high BCs tried to use this bullet at the highest velocities achievable with big wildcats for obvious reasons (minimal drop and drift).
In many of these situations the bullets blew up in flight. At best precision and accuracy was poor so folks learned that they had to dial the velocity back to use these bullets. In this particular example the velocities that worked were in the 3,200 fps and less region which most found acceptable.
With this 338 cal bullet we made the jacket thicker to begin with because we wanted to prevent the bullet failures as described above. We knew many folks wanted to drive this bullet hard so we implemented a solution that worked in the past. In this case we are facing a new issue which we believe is nose slump.
These 338 cal bullets have been reported as working very well at velocities that most would consider moderate. For this reason it is likely that the bullet that exists today will remain a part of our line. The revised version will be made as a separate option for those who want to push this bullet hard.
I suspect that this revised version will compromise on some of the other characteristics our bullets possess but to guess which characteristic and to what degree would be pure speculation so not worth discussing now. I can say that we will not compromise on precision and will work to produce a bullet that can take hard shooting and react properly with impact on live tissue.
Fiftydriver,
Your point about waiting two years is valid. It is this long wait that played a role in my decision to release this bullet with minimal testing. I do not intend for this to be an excuse but rather an explanation. There are no excuses regarding this situation and I accept that this was an error.
I am a shooter too. I know what it feels like to yearn for the latest hottest thing and not be able to get it. We received far more calls and emails asking about the 338 cal bullets than any other bullet in our history. I was as eager for these to get "out there" as everyone was to shoot them. I took a chance that everything was going to be fine. We make all our bullets the same way and this is no different with the 338 cal.
Most of the two year wait was the result of our need to build a new machine that had a long enough stroke to make bullets up to and including 50 cal. Once the machine was completed it was not long before we had bullets made since our process is always the same.
We had designed a bullet failure solution into this bullet so I had no reason to believe there would be any problems. Obviously I was wrong. If I had a chance to do it over again I would have done it differently. Wanting a bullet to work for those who are eager to shoot it is not the same as making sure the bullet will work and I understand that better now than I did a few weeks ago. I promise you and anyone who wants to push this bullet hard that we will have a solution.
Regards,
Eric
When plastic tips became popular we spent a lot of time trying to get them to work. We were unsuccessful in making the axis of the bullet line up consistently with the axis of the tip. This produces precision issues.
It has been our position that precision is our top priority so we (Walt at the time) decided not to use plastic tips in any of our bullets. We recognize that plastic tips have benefits but until we can make them shoot precisely we won't use them.
Canyonman1,
For clarification purposes, many of our bullets do not perform well at the highest possible velocities. When the first VLD was created (6mm 105 gr) many who understood high BCs tried to use this bullet at the highest velocities achievable with big wildcats for obvious reasons (minimal drop and drift).
In many of these situations the bullets blew up in flight. At best precision and accuracy was poor so folks learned that they had to dial the velocity back to use these bullets. In this particular example the velocities that worked were in the 3,200 fps and less region which most found acceptable.
With this 338 cal bullet we made the jacket thicker to begin with because we wanted to prevent the bullet failures as described above. We knew many folks wanted to drive this bullet hard so we implemented a solution that worked in the past. In this case we are facing a new issue which we believe is nose slump.
These 338 cal bullets have been reported as working very well at velocities that most would consider moderate. For this reason it is likely that the bullet that exists today will remain a part of our line. The revised version will be made as a separate option for those who want to push this bullet hard.
I suspect that this revised version will compromise on some of the other characteristics our bullets possess but to guess which characteristic and to what degree would be pure speculation so not worth discussing now. I can say that we will not compromise on precision and will work to produce a bullet that can take hard shooting and react properly with impact on live tissue.
Fiftydriver,
Your point about waiting two years is valid. It is this long wait that played a role in my decision to release this bullet with minimal testing. I do not intend for this to be an excuse but rather an explanation. There are no excuses regarding this situation and I accept that this was an error.
I am a shooter too. I know what it feels like to yearn for the latest hottest thing and not be able to get it. We received far more calls and emails asking about the 338 cal bullets than any other bullet in our history. I was as eager for these to get "out there" as everyone was to shoot them. I took a chance that everything was going to be fine. We make all our bullets the same way and this is no different with the 338 cal.
Most of the two year wait was the result of our need to build a new machine that had a long enough stroke to make bullets up to and including 50 cal. Once the machine was completed it was not long before we had bullets made since our process is always the same.
We had designed a bullet failure solution into this bullet so I had no reason to believe there would be any problems. Obviously I was wrong. If I had a chance to do it over again I would have done it differently. Wanting a bullet to work for those who are eager to shoot it is not the same as making sure the bullet will work and I understand that better now than I did a few weeks ago. I promise you and anyone who wants to push this bullet hard that we will have a solution.
Regards,
Eric
In any World Class Company the approval for product release does not rest with technicians, engineers or the like but, further up the chain. So I've been wondering whether or not someone at Berger who owned the decision would step up to the plate if for no other reason other than to stop any errosion of Bryan's credibility. Eric has stepped up to the plate and that tell's me alot about the man...Eric-Job Well Done.
Since Eric's post no one has mentioned this so I will. It's says alot about a man (Bryan) when due to no fault of his he stands at the front gates of his company and takes the hits one after the other and never sought to distance himself from the problem and how it wasn't his fault...not even a hint. In fact, if you read Bryan's post you'd think he made the decision. Bryan-Outstanding Loyalty.
With a world that all to often seems short on integrity, it is truly refreshing to witness two men who have it.
For many years I told my Managers it's ok to make mistakes just not the same ones over and over again, so if your not banging into the guardrail every once in a while then your not trying hard enough. Whether it's NASCAR or football unless your making a few mistakes or banging into the guardrail then your probably not trying hard enough and not going to be a World Class athelete or produce a World Class Product and so on.
I don't care that Berger made a mistake. What I do care about is how they address the public and the problem. From what I see I think they are on the right track.
Since Eric's post no one has mentioned this so I will. It's says alot about a man (Bryan) when due to no fault of his he stands at the front gates of his company and takes the hits one after the other and never sought to distance himself from the problem and how it wasn't his fault...not even a hint. In fact, if you read Bryan's post you'd think he made the decision. Bryan-Outstanding Loyalty.
With a world that all to often seems short on integrity, it is truly refreshing to witness two men who have it.
For many years I told my Managers it's ok to make mistakes just not the same ones over and over again, so if your not banging into the guardrail every once in a while then your not trying hard enough. Whether it's NASCAR or football unless your making a few mistakes or banging into the guardrail then your probably not trying hard enough and not going to be a World Class athelete or produce a World Class Product and so on.
I don't care that Berger made a mistake. What I do care about is how they address the public and the problem. From what I see I think they are on the right track.
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 292
Our goal is to define precisely what is occuring. Right now we suspect nose slump but until this is proven it is speculation. If we prove that it is nose slump then our next goal is to define which aspect of the nose contributes most to this result. Then we will apply solutions to this specific characteristic.
It is clear that the larger frontal area of the 338 cal is a different characterisitic than our other bullets and likely plays a role. Nose slump has not been reported in other 338 cal brands but none of these other options use our same materials or have a nose the same length as ours.
In the end we will have a clear understanding and a true solution. I enjoy discussion about unknown realities but have learned that until we have proven the root cause and tested individual solutions we are on shaky ground.
Regards,
Eric
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Eric, Bryan and the folks at Berger Bullets.
Straight and from the horse's mouth is a great thing. To see through your words into your integrity and values is a great thing.
To release the bullet based on information available and tons on experience wasn't a mistake just a little premature. Personally in an overall view, I think the experience will turn out to be a big plus. Just wait and see!
Hey, it's not called the "bleeding edge" for no reason. Hang tough!
I'm happy to hear that theses bullets will be kept on the market as my lowly 338 RUM shoots them superbly. In fact I don't have to worry about hitting the chorno @ 300 yds.
Unless I screw up.
This experience will contribute to when you make your 375 offering. I've learned that when you overcome a challenge well it never has the courage to confront you a again!
Straight and from the horse's mouth is a great thing. To see through your words into your integrity and values is a great thing.
To release the bullet based on information available and tons on experience wasn't a mistake just a little premature. Personally in an overall view, I think the experience will turn out to be a big plus. Just wait and see!
Hey, it's not called the "bleeding edge" for no reason. Hang tough!
I'm happy to hear that theses bullets will be kept on the market as my lowly 338 RUM shoots them superbly. In fact I don't have to worry about hitting the chorno @ 300 yds.
Unless I screw up.This experience will contribute to when you make your 375 offering. I've learned that when you overcome a challenge well it never has the courage to confront you a again!
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
To clarify, high pressure causing nose slump is on the top of our list but we do not have a clear cause so it could be something else. I relay that there was minimal testing but there was and continues to be ongoing testing.
In these tests there has been one repeatable result. In high pressure loads the bullets drop more than predicted by our BC (even our revised BC). We've observed drop that is consistent with a BC as low as .700. I am a big believer in the scientific process and this process must start with a theory arrived upon by available observations.
When a bullet consistently drops more than expected there are only a few things that can create this result and they are all related to the shape of the bullet. We have compelling physical evidence that the BT is not changing shape. Even if it were it would not produce the amount of change in trajectory that has been observed.
So then we're left with the nose. For many years prior to his death, we worked regularly with Bill Davis (creator of the VLD design). Those who don't know who Bill is think of someone as sharp as Bryan with many decades of testing experience at Aberdeen and Picatinny. He was one of the top minds in external ballistics.
We worked with Bill while we were exploring the bullet failure situation. Early in these bullet failure discussions we were considering nose slump as a cause proposed by Henry Childs. Bill relayed that he had observed nose slump in everything from rimfire to artillery rounds. He said that in every case nose slump was caused by the high pressure spike upon ignition of the powder.
Since this was true even with rimfire ammo it was clear to him that it was not a function of velocity but rather high pressure. We all agree that typically high pressure is associated with high velocity but they are not directly connected. Some rifles produce high velocity at lower pressures than with other loads that produce lower velocity with higher pressures.
Bill said that the conditions that cause nose slump do not cause bullet failure so it was dismissed but never forgotten. Now back to our observations. Nose slump can change the shape of the ogive to the point where the trajectory is affected. We expected this result to be more random but this has not been the case. This is a long answer to your question but this is why nose slump from high pressure is the cause we are investigating first.
Keep something in mind, there are two different situations that have occured with our 338 cal 300 gr. The first is that we jumped the gun and published a BC that is higher than actual (.891 vs. .818) by 7%. The second is that in high pressure situations this bullet will drop more than the .818 BC will predict and the precision will be poor.
The first situation is unfortunate but survivable as this BC is still higher than any other 338 cal bullet available. Remember that our estimation of the .9 BC was based on design. We worked to make the bullet as close as possible to the design but we fell short (not Bryan's fault). We have not made the VLD bullet yet which should have a higher BC than the Hybrid. The second situation affects those who were planning on shooting this bullet hard and must be resolved.
Regards,
Eric
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Franklin
Well-Known Member
Eric,
Hopefully you guys can come up with a bullet that will take care of the nose slump issues in the large wildcats, while keeping it soft enough to be used for hunting. Like many others, shooting targets at long range is fun, but alot of us, use the big 338's for long range smack down on big game. Myself, I can't wait for the 250's. If these come out with a b.c around .7, you can keep the 300's for all but the most extreme ranges and calibers.
Hopefully you guys can come up with a bullet that will take care of the nose slump issues in the large wildcats, while keeping it soft enough to be used for hunting. Like many others, shooting targets at long range is fun, but alot of us, use the big 338's for long range smack down on big game. Myself, I can't wait for the 250's. If these come out with a b.c around .7, you can keep the 300's for all but the most extreme ranges and calibers.
Eric Stecker
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Chas1,
I've had the privilege of knowing Bryan for many years now and I consider him among the highest caliber. He's a top mind in ballistics too
+1 on Bryan
Regards,
Eric
I've had the privilege of knowing Bryan for many years now and I consider him among the highest caliber. He's a top mind in ballistics too
+1 on Bryan
Regards,
Eric
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
300saum,
We share your desire as we know what the primary purpose is for the 338 cal. I don't recall seeing a 338 cal at Camp Perry during the NRA Long Range Nationals. Our current bullet does provide an option for moderate velocity cartridges but our goal is the same as yours. Of course, what we learn about this situation will be applied to the 250 gr as well.
Regards,
Eric
