Flagstaff AZ human caused, again.

[Bob Wright]

I don't have pictures of today's burn scar from the Dude fire above Tonto creek and over the Mogollon rim in unit 22, AZ.
That land is sterilized. It happened in the 90's. The only thing growing in that burn scar is manzanita and "wait-a-second" noxious garbage. The elk only move thru to get somewhere else. My friend lives right on Ellison creek where I visit off and on.
Fires in healthy forests burn off under growth. That's good.

Fires so hot that they crown the canopies and burn old tree growth are a decades disaster.
Remember, that streams in the Yellowstone fires actually boiled out of the creeks until those fires burned out.
Arizona is not very healthy when it comes to fuel load. Finding companies to thin, with some profit, is very hard to do today.
We screwed ourselves by fire suppression and eliminating forestries and timber harvests across the states for years. Now we are reaping the destruction.

 

[HockeyDad]

Bob Wright, I just read an article that said a big part of the problem with thinning is lumber companies only want the old growth (big) trees. They don't want the younger trees or clear out the under brush.
There's areas of the Rodeo Chedeski fire 20 years ago that are still moonscapes. I'll NEVER see trees past saplings there in my lifetime, and my 15 year old kid might not either.
We were at the top of Mount Lemmon last month. Very sad to see how that place got wiped out a couple years ago.

 

[brcfo_outdoors]

Fires so hot that they crown the canopies and burn old tree growth are a decades disaster.
Remember, that streams in the Yellowstone fires actually boiled out of the creeks until those fires burned out.
Arizona is not very healthy when it comes to fuel load. Finding companies to thin, with some profit, is very hard to do today.
We screwed ourselves by fire suppression and eliminating forestries and timber harvests across the states for years. Now we are reaping the destruction.

This. A lot of evergreen trees are supposed to be "fire proof" and even use the heat from fires to help them germinate. These hot fires are too much for what resilience nature has given them and they go up like torches. That part of the ecosystem which is supposed to endure the fires and lay the ground work for recovery is simply eliminated.

My mother sent me this photo, from Desolation Wilderness near Lake Tahoe. This is a hike I used to do as a kid and the Caldor fire has turned it into this. Cause was "reckless arson". My guess is that it will take a long time to bounce back, unlike the grasslands of southern California.

 

[Bob Wright]

Az had a deal to cut and grind small stuff for a saw dust fired electric plant near Taylor. The prices for biomass varied and now the status is uncertain. Some larger trees, sure. I'm seeing a number of logging trucks still coming off high country highways. The rest of the smaller is getting ground up.
It's not a large operation but something. Thinning near Flagstaff on I-17 is apparent as well as Hwy 87 and 260. The biggest hangup now is the entire forest around Blue ridge reservoir. If it burns, it will be a disaster for the lake.
Still, thinning is monumental in size and scope.

 

[LkeAF]

"Burns don't kill off wildlife, not on any kind of scale. " I would put one exception on that and that is when it's fawning season, like right now. Fawns will not escape fire.
Most of the wildfires these days are human caused. Although the news likes to tell us it's all connected to global warming.

Cause is one thing. Fire behavior is something else. And the "stupid" is everywhere and growing. A lot of fires are caused by a human doing something stupid, but their behavior once ignited has changed with the changing climate. I saw where the state of Idaho just closed a portion of state owned land that is a popular recreation area. Trash everywhere, toilet paper and human feces everywhere, and OHV's going off trail and going everywhere. The bottom line is that in this country, you can't have anything nice because we just aren't smart or responsible enough to take care of it.... Sorry to be so negative, but dayum it is frustrating to see.

 

[adam32+P]

This. A lot of evergreen trees are supposed to be "fire proof" and even use the heat from fires to help them germinate. These hot fires are too much for what resilience nature has given them and they go up like torches. That part of the ecosystem which is supposed to endure the fires and lay the ground work for recovery is simply eliminated.

My mother sent me this photo, from Desolation Wilderness near Lake Tahoe. This is a hike I used to do as a kid and the Caldor fire has turned it into this. Cause was "reckless arson". My guess is that it will take a long time to bounce back, unlike the grasslands of southern California.

That Caldor fire was a straight **** show...Forest Circus didn't know what day it was half the time. That fire was 100% stoppable long before it got to where it got.

These large campaigns are money driven far more than anything else. What's the incentive to put the fire out when you're making OT, hazard pay, per diem, etc etc etc....$250,000 per drop from the DC-10...might help more if it didn't drop 5 miles from the fire.

 

[LkeAF]

That Caldor fire was a straight **** show...Forest Circus didn't know what day it was half the time. That fire was 100% stoppable long before it got to where it got.

These large campaigns are money driven far more than anything else. What's the incentive to put the fire out when you're making OT, hazard pay, per diem, etc etc etc....$250,000 per drop from the DC-10...might help more if it didn't drop 5 miles from the fire.

And what is your level of fire training certification and experience?

 

[Predator 22]

Fires in healthy forests burn off under growth. That's good.

Fires so hot that they crown the canopies and burn old tree growth are a decades disaster.
Arizona is not very healthy when it comes to fuel load. Finding companies to thin, with some profit, is very hard to do today.
We screwed ourselves by fire suppression and eliminating forestries and timber harvests across the states for years. Now we are reaping the destruction.

Bingo

Bob Wright, I just read an article that said a big part of the problem with thinning is lumber companies only want the old growth (big) trees. They don't want the younger trees or clear out the under brush.

Not entirely true. Most of the mills I deal with don't want the bigger stuff because they are not set up for them anymore. When I was a kid the forest service wouldn't hardly let you cut even a decent size tree. Now, at least in my area, we have been able to do proper thinning leaving a variety of tree sizes. Only thing I wish they would change is the brush clearing. We've been cutting the scrub oak by hand and piling it to be burned. Mastacating would be much more efficient and cost less.
Here is a picture of the log deck from a small 24 acre sale I just finished up today. Their has already been 25 semi loads hauled out and around 30 left to haul. Gives you a idea of how overgrown our forests are. If anyone would like before and after pics of the next section I would be happy to post them.

 

[Bob Wright]

Bingo

Not entirely true. Most of the mills I deal with don't want the bigger stuff because they are not set up for them anymore. When I was a kid the forest service wouldn't hardly let you cut even a decent size tree. Now, at least in my area, we have been able to do proper thinning leaving a variety of tree sizes. Only thing I wish they would change is the brush clearing. We've been cutting the scrub oak by hand and piling it to be burned. Mastacating would be much more efficient and cost less.
Here is a picture of the log deck from a small 24 acre sale I just finished up today. Their has already been 25 semi loads hauled out and around 30 left to haul. Gives you a idea of how overgrown our forests are. If anyone would like before and after pics of the next section I would be happy to post them.
View attachment 372092

A picture of a healthy thinned area would be great, before and after if possible.

 

[Predator 22]

Will do.
Should also mention almost all the trees I cut are the least healthy trees. Crooks, lighting struck, dead streaks, twin tops, mistletoe, thinning tops, pine beetle infested and dead trees. The few healthy trees I do cut are because of overcrowding.

 

[adam32+P]

And what is your level of fire training certification and experience?

Well considering my BIL was the 22nd call they made and the first dozer on scene. It was a **** show. Plus, I know Captains with the Feds that were telling me the same thing, one hand didn't know what the other was doing. A LOT of contract operators are fed up with the feds. As are their own employees.

How about the Dardnelle fire where the Feds literally "watched" it for days...how'd that one turn out? Or the Rim Fire when CalFire was circling their S2's ready to help and the Feds said no thanks...how'd that one turn out? No accountability.

You don't need many certs to know what's going on. And being on the aviation side for a while, I know how things operate. I have videos from the Rim Fire of the DC10 doing it's afternoon airshow for the media many many many miles away from the fire.

Now the Feds are directly responsible for the biggest fire in NM history and the loss of hundreds of homes...what will happen? If it were PGE's "fault" they would be sued into bankruptcy (again) but the Feds will continue doing what they do.

It's all corrupt and money driven, even CalFire. Read the book "Scorched Worth", slush funds from fining companies for "starting fires", etc etc etc.

 

[Reelamin]

That Caldor fire was a straight **** show...Forest Circus didn't know what day it was half the time. That fire was 100% stoppable long before it got to where it got.

These large campaigns are money driven far more than anything else. What's the incentive to put the fire out when you're making OT, hazard pay, per diem, etc etc etc....$250,000 per drop from the DC-10...might help more if it didn't drop 5 miles from the fire.

Absolutely true and has been for decades. Been around big wildfires my whole life. 5000 acres is a bunny fart fire the locals put out before the gov cluster shows up.
I don't forget where this problem started. LAWYERS!!

The mess is reversible we just flat will not do what it takes.

They make so much money private companies have air fleets from twin props to Blackhawk helicopters.

 

[Bob Wright]

I guess when the Fed is made up of overlapping agencies:
USDA
NATIONAL FOREST SERVICE
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
BLM
NATIONAL PARKS SYSTEMS
others I missed?

Environmental lawyers can drop suits into any activity to prevent maintenence of healthy forests, fight wildfires and "fire wise" lands. Depending on whose running the country, the political winds change dramatically, having a lasting effect on how this fire problem gets handled.
It's a monumental problem across the country especially in the west.

 

[Tac-O]

What is interesting is that if you read books about some of the mountain men and a journal written by a beaver trapper himself (Osbourne Russell), you'll note that fires in the west were very commonly started by them or by indians when in a fight if one of the parties was taking cover in a thicket or similar, in order to burn them out of cover. Also, there's no doubt they didn't practice the douse with water and stir until dead out method with their campfires. Yet, there's no accounts of massive wildfires in that time period, that I'm aware of.

It just goes to show how thoroughly we have F'd the western landscape in the last 200 years.